Pronounciation of 'kyusu'


Completely off the Topic of Tea

Re: Pronounciation of 'kyusu'

Postby JBaymore » Sep 23rd, '10, 11:31

TokyoB wrote:Interesting how culture and language together imply things that make translation difficult. I guess you can't translate all the concepts that are behind one phrase or sentence.


Japanese is an interpreted languge, not a literally translated one. Hence the awful and often funny machine translations you see. Other than for basic sentences, you often need a "bigger picture context" to understand the specific choices of words. And with the rather heavy use of colloquialisms, you almost have to grow up in the culture to understand how things are often expreessed.

TokyoB wrote:Are you a fluent Japanese speaker?


No... very far from fluent. I can "get by" when I am in Japan.... probably like you, "basic conversation". The kinds of "deep" conversations that I would LOVE to be able to have....... no joy. I read Kana and understand some but way too few Kanji. In a ceramics workshop I have the vocabulary and colloquialisms down pretty well though. The "total immersion" factor at work. :wink: .

best,

..................john
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Re: Pronounciation of 'kyusu'

Postby skilfautdire » Sep 29th, '10, 05:42

TokyoB wrote:In "kyuusu", which is actually the romanized Japanese based on the katakana "きゅうす", the last u sound is pronounced very lightly.

Thanks for the details. What does 'kyusu' means anyways ? I've noticed that in the Nikko national park north of Tokyo there are Kyusu Falls. And these falls do not look like a teapot! If one would remove any context altogether, what would be the literal translation of 'kyusu' ?
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Re: Pronounciation of 'kyusu'

Postby togei » Sep 30th, '10, 07:01

急 = fast, hurry
須 = to have time, to not hurry.
It must be a combination that is paired to fit the word, i.e. ateji, not a combination that the word is derived from.
I looked up the history of the word 'kyusu' on Yahoo Japan and found the following from a site called 'Ask a 70 year old'.
In China the item we are talking about, the kyusu, was used for sake, pouring vessels, that is bowls with a pouring spout, and as a container used for tea leaves.
Kibisho
Chadashi
are 2 variations on the pronunciation although it isn't clear if these are Chinese origin or not. The 2 variations, kibisho, chadashi, are still used in Kyushu.
Interestingly the 'su' kanji, 須, is the same kanji used in 'sueki', 須恵器, http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A0%88%E6%81%B5%E5%99%A8
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Re: Pronounciation of 'kyusu'

Postby mbishop » Sep 30th, '10, 13:23

I say "kyou-sue", pronouncing the k like "cu" in "cut". I had always assumed gyokuro was pronounced "guy-o-koo-row", but it seems most people pronounce it "guy-koo-row", no emphasis on the O, and very fast.
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Re: Pronounciation of 'kyusu'

Postby skilfautdire » Sep 30th, '10, 18:37

togei wrote:急 = fast, hurry
須 = to have time, to not hurry.

Thanks again for the details. This is interesting. I ran the above in Google translate and it gives somewhat of a variation:
急 = sudden
須 = mandatory
From then on, that 須 is used in 'earthen vessel' is not surprising. The only thing with this, for me, is that there's way too much 'anything goes' involved :shock: I'd like to reason something out in a root-formation oriented way but it seems it simply does not apply to these kind of languages.

OK, let's try something almost unrelated, switching Google to Chinese:
急 = urgent
須 = be

There's a whole world to discover there. I compare this to the two known way of carrying data: either it is sent very fast or, the receiver and transmitter shares a lot of context. One needs a lot of infrastructure in place (fiber optics or root-oriented languages which are simpler to learn but relies on common roots) the other needs a lot of setup time (exchanging context information or learning the language).

On one end, Italian: many words very fast :o

On the other end, Chinese (and Japanese) : less words but lots of context.

Well, I guess one is cheaper natively for SMS ! :lol:
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Re: Pronounciation of 'kyusu'

Postby chingwa » Sep 30th, '10, 19:13

After a lot of time studying Kanji and trying to build up my Japanese vocabulary, I've come to the conclusion that sometimes the Kanji meanings actually relate to the words meaning and actually make sense, and sometimes... they just simply don't (at least not in any definable way). This philosophy keeps me from thinking too hard about concepts that just aren't readily understandable... and frees my finite brain power to wander more fruitful gardens of thought :D

I say "kyou-sue", pronouncing the k like "cu" in "cut". I had always assumed gyokuro was pronounced "guy-o-koo-row", but it seems most people pronounce it "guy-koo-row", no emphasis on the O, and very fast.

This is the problem when translating foreign characters into a roman alphabet, that is, you don't actually see the original structure of the word and are forced to infer how it is pronounced... in this case too many syllables...

pronunciation (3 syllables):
ぎょ - く - ろ
GYO - KU - RO

GYO - like the english "grow" but slap a y in where the r is.
KU - like "coo" as in a cooing pigeon.
RO - yes as in "row"

---

きゅ - う - す
KYU - U - SU

KYU - as in the first part of "cute"
U - "ooooo" basically just elongates the end of the above syllable
SU - "sue" as in the American "justice" system.
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Re: Pronounciation of 'kyusu'

Postby JBaymore » Sep 30th, '10, 22:15

chingwa wrote:RO - yes as in "row"


Important to add ..... with a Spanish type rolling "trill" on the "r" sound making it almost having a bit of a "l" quality. NOt as hard an "R" feeling as in the world "row".


And yes, the Hepburn Romaji system has its limits.

best,

..........john
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