What makes a Puerh tea a Puerh tea ?

[Proinsias]

What makes a Puerh tea a Puerh tea ?

On reflection I think the answer to this is to drink lots of pu'er and lots of tea that's a bit like pu'er. It helps if you like pu'er.

[Rithmomachy]

Historically, there are records Puerh had been drunk among the aristocracy and officials in Beijing and regarded very highly. There was also a tribute sent over to Beijing court reguarly. They were young leaves mostly sent from Yiwu, also good Gushu leaves I don't find much bitterness in them they are very pleasurable drink even when young IMHO. Today, the priciest camellia sinensis is expected to be Puerh (like Tribute Melon Tea), the one records highest these days at auction, also is Puerh.

Do we know anything else about these historical teas? I doubt they were aged like we associate with pu erh today.

When did pu erh begin to be aged? I've heard that aged pu erh really began to be appreciated around 1980 in and around Hong Kong, but wo dui was invented in 1970 supposedly to imitate aged pu erh, and there are claims that it was actually developed earlier than that (maybe the 1950s). So pu erh must have been aged prior to that, right?

[Proinsias]

When did pu erh begin to be aged?

I was under the impression that pu'erh was in part created as it would not degrade with time. Its genesis was in creating a tea that would not be badly affected by a long journey- it might even be improved!

When did pu erh begin to be aged? I've heard that aged pu erh really began to be appreciated around 1980 in and around Hong Kong, but wo dui was invented in 1970 supposedly to imitate aged pu erh, and there are claims that it was actually developed earlier than that (maybe the 1950s). So pu erh must have been aged prior to that, right?

I have no idea when pu'er was first aged but if you consider aged at maybe 20 years plus then you can get some 1900's aged pu from Sunsing, which has been classified as aged for over 80 years, if we assume the above.

[Rithmomachy]

I notice there are no prices listed for those teas. I assume that means I can't afford them! Has anyone tried them? Is that a reputable vendor?

I knew there were really old beengs around, but I wasn't sure if they were aged deliberately or just got kept in someone's attic until the pu erh boom of recent years. If people were aging tea deliberately, you'd think there would be more old tea around!

[TIM]

Of course there are lots of 'Old' and 'older' puerh cakes around. Just that they are not offen advertised. Like vintage wine from the 80's or before. Most of them are in collector's hands or auction house. An oz. Of SS puerh from the 50's runs around 800 US. Double or x3 up for older stuff.

[nicolas]

I notice there are no prices listed for those teas. I assume that means I can't afford them! Has anyone tried them? Is that a reputable vendor?

You can see some prices here.
http://www.sunsingtea.com/en/category.php?id=18
http://www.sunsingtea.com/en/category.php?id=17
in Hong Kong dollars so divide by 7.75 to convert to US dollars.

Caveat emptor.

[Proinsias]

I notice there are no prices listed for those teas. I assume that means I can't afford them! Has anyone tried them? Is that a reputable vendor?

I knew there were really old beengs around, but I wasn't sure if they were aged deliberately or just got kept in someone's attic until the pu erh boom of recent years. If people were aging tea deliberately, you'd think there would be more old tea around!

I've heard that they are reliable in description but it's been a few years since I've heard anyone saying they've bought from them. Nada's site might be worth a look. More affordable, and you can purchase most things by the gram.

Or you could just buy some pu'erh from TIM's site. I've never tried his tea but I get the feeling you won't be disappointed.

[chrl42]

Historically, there are records Puerh had been drunk among the aristocracy and officials in Beijing and regarded very highly. There was also a tribute sent over to Beijing court reguarly. They were young leaves mostly sent from Yiwu, also good Gushu leaves I don't find much bitterness in them they are very pleasurable drink even when young IMHO. Today, the priciest camellia sinensis is expected to be Puerh (like Tribute Melon Tea), the one records highest these days at auction, also is Puerh.

Do we know anything else about these historical teas? I doubt they were aged like we associate with pu erh today.

When did pu erh begin to be aged? I've heard that aged pu erh really began to be appreciated around 1980 in and around Hong Kong, but wo dui was invented in 1970 supposedly to imitate aged pu erh, and there are claims that it was actually developed earlier than that (maybe the 1950s). So pu erh must have been aged prior to that, right?

You are right, these Puerh must had been very different from modern day Puerh, regard my claim as opposed to "Puerh was ethnic's cheap tea", my claim is based on Taiwanese Puerh expert Jiang Yu Fa, who was the first one to oppose that common myth

Instead, let me add some on this later issue

Earliest script found saying that Puerh was on Beijing official's wishlist Korea's 燕行錄 (early-Qing, Yanjing was how they called Beijing today) - "In China, a number of teas is so many, they always drink Huangcha and Qingcha, followed by Xiang Pian Cha, among them the most sought-after was Puerh, but so many fakes"

Lee Gyu-Kyung (1788~1856) "In Beijing, teas are so many, among them the best one is Puerh, second is Baihao (white-tip) Cha, third is Qingcha (Oolong), fourth is Huangcha (yellow tea)

there are even script found saying Puerh was drunk in Chosun royal court, Chosun is old-time Korea

Qing 'tea' emperor Qian Long once said "only Puerh reveals gravity and grace........even Lu Yu might feel a shame"

When did pu erh begin to be aged?

Any teas can be aged, stored in garages, even now, so the correct answer I think could be when Hong Kongers garage-saled to Taiwanese but Hong Kongers did like the taste of fermentation tho, even before the Taiwanese came.
Puerh was first mentioned during late-Ming, saying people in Yunnan drank cake-tea as opposed loose-leaf which was Ming fashion, and called it Pu Cha but it nowhere mentioned whether they aged it or not.

[J.]

"The raw materials of puerh comes from Yunnan big-leaf tea tree cultivars grown in certain regions of Yunnan. The leaf materials are sun-dried and processed..."

Yeah, the leaf materials are sun dried.

"That's the reason why you'll never see PuErh written on a xiaguan tuo cha, they only produce tuo chas but no PuErh because they add a small amount of green tea in their tuos.
That green tea gives a smokey aroma to young xiaguan PuErh"

Well, I'm not sure of it, that's waht a Chinese friend told me, and I like that hypothesis.

[bearsbearsbears]

"That's the reason why you'll never see PuErh written on a xiaguan tuo cha, they only produce tuo chas but no PuErh because they add a small amount of green tea in their tuos.
That green tea gives a smokey aroma to young xiaguan PuErh"

Well, I'm not sure of it, that's waht a Chinese friend told me, and I like that hypothesis.

Sounds pretty silly. They use "pu'er" on their website to describe their tuocha contents: http://www.xgtea.com/cpzs_show.asp?infid=205

[Rithmomachy]

When did pu erh begin to be aged? I've heard that aged pu erh really began to be appreciated around 1980 in and around Hong Kong, but wo dui was invented in 1970 supposedly to imitate aged pu erh, and there are claims that it was actually developed earlier than that (maybe the 1950s). So pu erh must have been aged prior to that, right?

OK, so I've been doing some research. I found this passage published in 1899, which reads

Several times I was regaled on Pu'erh-cha, the greatly esteemed "strengthening tea" from Pu'erh Fu in Yunnan. It had a mildewed, tobacco, weedy flavor, a bitter draught which is warranted to strengthen the system, clear the brain, relieve the body of all humors and bile and serves high-living Mandarins as a course at Homburg does European bon-vivants. This plant grows the Shan States and the leaves are brought to Pu'erh Fu to be steamed and pressed into large flat cakes, which, being packed in paper only, soon mildew. . . . The Chinese consider the Pu erh cha the better by age and do not heed the mildew flavor it promotes.

No comments about deliberate aging, but even a hundred and eleven years ago, there was a marked preference for older pu erh!

I also found this excellent account of trade on the famous "Tea-Horse Road" between China and Tibet. It quotes Frederick Spenser Chapman's 1940 account Lhasa: The Holy City as saying that when tea arrived in Lhasa, the people there would "spread the tea bricks on the road for several days to let it acquire the strength and flavour demanded by Tibetan palates." An early form of wu dui? (Only, not wu, and not dui! )

[llouie]

Pu-erh tea is named after a town called Pu-erh in Yunnan, China. It used to be a trading post, where tea farmers brought and sold their harvests to the tea merchants. Back in the days, all the teas that were sold out of Pu-erh were called Pu-erh tea.
Today, according to the official definition, Pu-erh tea must be made from the broad-leaf variety of the tea plant native to Yunnan (Yunnan Dayeh). The tea must adhere to a certain processing steps and must undergo fermentation, either naturally or artifically. See video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3RyaLTg1mg
There are 2 types of Pu-erh: Raw Pu-erh and ripe Pu-erh. Raw Pu-erh is aged naturally overtime and ripe Pu-erh goes through fermentation by using a process called "wu-dui," essentially adding humidity and heat to promote a biological change within the pile of tea leaves. This process was invented in the mid-70's as a quick way to meet the high demand of people in HK and Guangdong who desired the aged flavor Pu-erh tea.

[JAS-eTea Guy]

All of the above is a very interesting discussion. What is the source for the stated data and what is the reliability of that source?

Thanks,
Steve

[skilfautdire]

The reading in this thread is quite interesting indeed. If I've grokked somewhat the matters, some confusion about puerh tea arises from the fact that too many times the term 'puerh tea' is used to designate the compressed tea, whether it is a cake, a brick or any other shape. Or for that matter, post-fermented tea.

If I got some of this right, 'puerh tea' is about a tea that comes from a region in Yunnan and would basically have nothing to do with post-fermented teas, although those tea leaves are used for that.

The video mentioned above shows quite a basic processing. Wilting, kill green, drying in the sun, which is not too different from other tea processings.

So, if a puerh tea is directly related to a region, then it is about the type of tea varietal trees/plants/bushes that are growing there, which presumably, does not grow elsewhere. Perhaps the prevailing weather conditions also.

So far, for me (still a newbie) puerh tea = compressed tea, shu or sheng. Now I see that this is not actually the case.

I'll drink to that !

[Rithmomachy]

All of the above is a very interesting discussion. What is the source for the stated data and what is the reliability of that source?

Thanks,
Steve

Which data are you asking about? There are sources in my links, but I'm happy to answer questions about how I got them. (Lots of Googling!)