Regarding long term storage


One of the intentionally aged teas, Pu-Erh has a loyal following.

Re: Regarding long term storage

Postby theredbaron » Nov 12th, '12, 06:25

yanom wrote:TRB: it seems you're a bit dismissive of the whole idea of increasing humidity levels, but for those of us who live in centrally heated houses where humidity levels can be, say, 40%-50%, what's the alternative?


Not at all dismissive. When i move back to Europe i will have to deal with these issues as well, especially in the winter months when heaters and/or very cold snow days will make the air inside very dry.
That's why i think of room humidifiers - there will be anyhow enough airflow by normal regular airing the room by leaving windows open for a while.

I am just very skeptical over the use of artificially created tropical climates in very small spaces such as a box or cupboard. I have lived about 25 years in the tropics, and know what such a climate can do to stuff when there is not enough air circulation. I have seen almost over night thick layers of mold developing on leather items stored in a box in the rain season, i had books falling apart just from the humidity in badly ventilated hotel and guesthouse rooms in Bombay, mold in camera lenses in jungles - just to name a few examples.

The line between what may me conductive for accelerated aging, and what may turn into a disaster is very thin. I would rather put up with slower aging than with the risk of destroyed teas.
theredbaron
 
Posts: 492
Joined: Aug 1st, '1
Location: Bangkok

Re: Regarding long term storage

Postby yanom » Nov 12th, '12, 07:49

Okay that seems fair enough but I'm not sure too many people's home-storage parameters are as extreme as you're suggesting: I think there's a huge difference between the humidity where you live and the 20-25 degrees centigrade, 70% humidity that I'm aiming for with a cardboard box and a bowl of water.
I think also this is particularly relevant to young tea that hasn't already had 10 years of storage somewhere warm and humid like HK or, say, Bangkok. I seriously believe that if I just kept young tea on a shelf indoors in the UK it would end up tasting horrible in the future -- or at least, far from my idea of nice puerh. Whereas by keeping it in a slightly more humid (70% at lowish temperatures is rather conservative I think) storage, there's at least a chance it will be drinkable in 10 years time.
It's not a question of accelerated ageing so much as wanting to avoid brittle, dried-out tea in 10 years time.
I'm more conservative with 10-20 years tea that's already had hot/humid ageing by the pros, and when you move back to Europe with a decent amount of tea that's already spent years in Bangkok you might well find that you can get by with very simple, non-drastic methods to give just a little boost to moisture.
But for the young stuff, I simply don't see the trade-off that you're proposing: safe but slow ageing on the one hand, versus accelerated risky ageing on the other. Because I don't see that the safe but slow method will give me drinkable tea.
yanom
 
Posts: 128
Joined: Oct 5th, '1

Re: Regarding long term storage

Postby edkrueger » Nov 12th, '12, 15:32

theredbaron wrote:Do i really have to link to the urban dictionary now?

OK...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=QED

:roll:

Ha! First you insult another poster's sophistication, then you treat urban dictionary as a source.
User avatar
edkrueger
 
Posts: 1693
Joined: Jun 24th, '

Re: Regarding long term storage

Postby AdamMY » Nov 12th, '12, 16:07

Urban Dictionary.... The dictionary you use when you want the wrong definition :!:

Honestly, one could argue urban dictionary is similar to Wikipedia in the sense that its based off of submissions by users, but the big issue here, is Urban Dictionary doesn't give a (bleep) if its an actual thing, whether you gave an actual meaning, or if you read the term and decided to make up a definition on the spot.

Face it your use of QED was wrong, practically by definition, the whole thing was still under debate no one had definitively proved anything, the most you did was show that it can go wrong, but that is not proof that it is impossible to age tea that way, and that it will always go bad.

But to get back on topic, I am personally of the belief, let people that live in the proper areas store the tea, and buy it samples or a cake or two at a time. I honestly think by artificially introducing humidity you tempt fate far to much, but in most places simply letting it sit out it moves at a snails pace in typical conditions for most of North America, and likely Europe Too, along with other large portions of the world.

Take that last paragraph with a grain of salt, I still have some puerh, and no its not really aging at all, but I also don't have a large collection, and I am just storing it in a cloth box under my tea table.
User avatar
AdamMY
 
Posts: 2363
Joined: Jul 22nd, '
Location: Capital of the Mitten

Re: Regarding long term storage

Postby BioHorn » Nov 12th, '12, 21:08

Since this thread is about pu storage I thought some readers would want to hear my experience with boveda packs. They have been in my pumidor for 4 or so months now. They have kept the humidity very steady with no dangerous spikes.

I just placed an order for 20 packs of their 75%. A bowl of water or a cigar oasis might work just as well. But I have read a number of reviews about cigar oasis fans pooping out, and I am not dilligent enough to trust having a bowl of water in my hermetically sealed plastic box.
User avatar
BioHorn
 
Posts: 531
Joined: May 2nd, '1
Location: Shaker Heights, Ohio USA

Re: Regarding long term storage

Postby theredbaron » Nov 13th, '12, 00:11

edkrueger wrote:
theredbaron wrote:Do i really have to link to the urban dictionary now?

OK...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=QED

:roll:

Ha! First you insult another poster's sophistication, then you treat urban dictionary as a source.


I am not going to discuss the use of colloquialism any more, this is getting too anal for me.
Have you got anything to contribute regarding long term storage of Pu Erh tea, personal experience of years of storing Pu Erh, or do you just revel in arguing with me over the facetious use of language?
Last edited by theredbaron on Nov 13th, '12, 00:19, edited 1 time in total.
theredbaron
 
Posts: 492
Joined: Aug 1st, '1
Location: Bangkok

Re: Regarding long term storage

Postby theredbaron » Nov 13th, '12, 00:19

BioHorn wrote:Since this thread is about pu storage I thought some readers would want to hear my experience with boveda packs. They have been in my pumidor for 4 or so months now. They have kept the humidity very steady with no dangerous spikes.

I just placed an order for 20 packs of their 75%. A bowl of water or a cigar oasis might work just as well. But I have read a number of reviews about cigar oasis fans pooping out, and I am not dilligent enough to trust having a bowl of water in my hermetically sealed plastic box.


Hermetically sealed plastic box???? :shock:

Oh, my... :(

You quite possibly will see the results for yourself, and dare say that chances are it won't be a nicely aged Pu Erh. And that i guess will be most likely my last comment here in this discussion.

Do what you want to do.
theredbaron
 
Posts: 492
Joined: Aug 1st, '1
Location: Bangkok

Re: Regarding long term storage

Postby BioHorn » Nov 13th, '12, 00:28

theredbaron wrote:
BioHorn wrote:Since this thread is about pu storage I thought some readers would want to hear my experience with boveda packs. They have been in my pumidor for 4 or so months now. They have kept the humidity very steady with no dangerous spikes.

I just placed an order for 20 packs of their 75%. A bowl of water or a cigar oasis might work just as well. But I have read a number of reviews about cigar oasis fans pooping out, and I am not dilligent enough to trust having a bowl of water in my hermetically sealed plastic box.


Hermetically sealed plastic box???? :shock:

Oh, my... :(

You quite possibly will see the results for yourself, and dare say that chances are it won't be a nicely aged Pu Erh. And that i guess will be most likely my last comment here in this discussion.

Do what you want to do.

Not at all dismissive. When i move back to Europe i will have to deal with these issues as well, especially in the winter months when heaters and/or very cold snow days will make the air inside very dry.
That's why i think of room humidifiers - there will be anyhow enough airflow by normal regular airing the room by leaving windows open for a while.


You mention the use of humidifiers.
Please let us know more on how you would age your puerh when you are in the very dry European air. When do you plan on opening the windows?
Last edited by BioHorn on Nov 13th, '12, 00:44, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
BioHorn
 
Posts: 531
Joined: May 2nd, '1
Location: Shaker Heights, Ohio USA

Re: Regarding long term storage

Postby theredbaron » Nov 13th, '12, 00:41

BioHorn wrote:
theredbaron wrote:
BioHorn wrote:Since this thread is about pu storage I thought some readers would want to hear my experience with boveda packs. They have been in my pumidor for 4 or so months now. They have kept the humidity very steady with no dangerous spikes.

I just placed an order for 20 packs of their 75%. A bowl of water or a cigar oasis might work just as well. But I have read a number of reviews about cigar oasis fans pooping out, and I am not dilligent enough to trust having a bowl of water in my hermetically sealed plastic box.


Hermetically sealed plastic box???? :shock:

Oh, my... :(

You quite possibly will see the results for yourself, and dare say that chances are it won't be a nicely aged Pu Erh. And that i guess will be most likely my last comment here in this discussion.

Do what you want to do.

How would you age your puerh if you lived in an arid climate?


A few posts above i have described what i would do (and will do when i move back to Europe):

I would use a well ventilated room, with windows that i open regularly, maybe twice a day, and use normal room humidifiers that raise the humidity in the whole room without cutting off air circulation and exposure to climate.
There are more factors to aging Pu Erh than just fulfilling particular sets of numbers of humidity percentage and temperature. Exposure to climate is another factor.
Aging Pu Erh is not exact science, in which particular parameters are to be adhered to, and then things will work out.

A hermetically sealed box with high humidity will only lead to a stale hot-wet micro climate good for raising fungus.
theredbaron
 
Posts: 492
Joined: Aug 1st, '1
Location: Bangkok

Re: Regarding long term storage

Postby BioHorn » Nov 13th, '12, 00:48

theredbaron wrote:
BioHorn wrote:
theredbaron wrote:
BioHorn wrote:Since this thread is about pu storage I thought some readers would want to hear my experience with boveda packs. They have been in my pumidor for 4 or so months now. They have kept the humidity very steady with no dangerous spikes.

I just placed an order for 20 packs of their 75%. A bowl of water or a cigar oasis might work just as well. But I have read a number of reviews about cigar oasis fans pooping out, and I am not dilligent enough to trust having a bowl of water in my hermetically sealed plastic box.


Hermetically sealed plastic box???? :shock:

Oh, my... :(

You quite possibly will see the results for yourself, and dare say that chances are it won't be a nicely aged Pu Erh. And that i guess will be most likely my last comment here in this discussion.

Do what you want to do.

How would you age your puerh if you lived in an arid climate?


A few posts above i have described what i would do (and will do when i move back to Europe):

I would use a well ventilated room, with windows that i open regularly, maybe twice a day, and use normal room humidifiers that raise the humidity in the whole room without cutting off air circulation and exposure to climate.
There are more factors to aging Pu Erh than just fulfilling particular sets of numbers of humidity percentage and temperature. Exposure to climate is another factor.
Aging Pu Erh is not exact science, in which particular parameters are to be adhered to, and then things will work out.

A hermetically sealed box with high humidity will only lead to a stale hot-wet micro climate good for raising fungus.


You caught me mid-edit. So you suggest opening the windows in the winter two times a day? What size room do you imagine humidifying and what size humidifier do you plan on using?

Does fungus grow well at 70% RH and 60-70 degrees F?
User avatar
BioHorn
 
Posts: 531
Joined: May 2nd, '1
Location: Shaker Heights, Ohio USA

Re: Regarding long term storage

Postby theredbaron » Nov 13th, '12, 00:57

BioHorn wrote:
You mention the use of humidifiers.
Please let us know more on how you would age your puerh when you are in the very dry European air. When do you plan on opening the windows?



Sorry, i answered before you edited your post.

The air in Europe isn't dry all the time. During and after rains it can get quite humid as well. The biggest worry for me is the winter months, where one has to heat an apartment/house, which makes the air incredibly dry, and storing outside is just too cold, and when it's icy, it the air gets very dry as well. That's when a humidifier is most important.

I would naturally in summer open the windows a lot, and in winter, the cooler days of autumn and spring at least twice a day, just as you normally do to air out the room so it doesn't get stuffy and smelly.

Of course this is all just speculation, and i might be wrong. That is why i spread my Pu Erh, i have fortunately many cakes that are already quite aged since i bought them, but i still buy, when i find them for somewhat reasonable prices, cakes of 7 to 10 years age and noticeable changes, in addition to some new cakes. At least, when my theory won't work, i will have a supply of good aged tea.
But i am confident that it will work - i have drunk a couple of months ago tea that was stored in a German farm, and which was quite promising.
theredbaron
 
Posts: 492
Joined: Aug 1st, '1
Location: Bangkok

Re: Regarding long term storage

Postby theredbaron » Nov 13th, '12, 01:18

BioHorn wrote:You caught me mid-edit. So you suggest opening the windows in the winter two times a day? What size room do you imagine humidifying and what size humidifier do you plan on using?

Does fungus grow well at 70% RH and 60-70 degrees F?



I don't know much about humidifiers yet, i will have to see. I don't know about the magic number of 70% RH. I read that cloud has used that number. But i guess this is more a benchmark than something that has to be religiously followed.
Every climate has changes, and also Hong Kong, where Cloud comes from, has different seasons, with different levels of humidity and temperature. Bangkok, while not as pronounced, still has seasons. KL and Singapore are more stuffy than Bangkok, and have less seasons as they are closer to the equator (maybe 1500 km closer than Bangkok). While we have a long period of no rain in the cold and in the hot season, KL has rains all over the year, in the rain season only more than in the other seasons.
A year and a half ago, i compared the same tea that i have stored 10 years in Bangkok with the same tea of friend's that remained in Malaysia, and strangely my tea was slightly more aged. Why? I wouldn't know. Was it my particular micro climate, was it the more pronounced seasonal change here in Bangkok?

There are people that argue that Pu Erh also needs dormant periods, such as in winter seasons. But what do i know? I am not a biochemist, or what can be called an expert. I just have stored at home for the past 10 years or so the tea i am drinking every day, and i am really happy with it. Part of the storage was not just humidity and a high temperatures, but also constant exposure to the climate (i have no aircon, only fans and open windows and doors).

My comparison are a few cakes that i have forgotten for more than 10 years in a wooden box, and not much air circulation apart what slipped through the cracks. And that didn't age very well at all. I suspect that this will be somewhat similar conditions to some of the pumidors i have seen pictures of, and read descriptions about.

I have tasted quite a lot of tea from the hotter and warmer climates here, that were musty in a bad way, the same taste of my tea i have forgotten. Not the clear and clean multilayered taste of my shelf stored tea.

That's the only thing i can say here. It's all speculation anyhow. But those are my experiences over the past 10 years.
theredbaron
 
Posts: 492
Joined: Aug 1st, '1
Location: Bangkok

Re: Regarding long term storage

Postby apolon » Nov 13th, '12, 02:07

I think TRB is on to something. I live in Europe and I use room humidifier in the winter for the room where I have my pu. In the summer the humidity is quite ok, so I only open the windows regulary. For now I am very happy with the results :) .
apolon
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Jul 27th, '

Re: Regarding long term storage

Postby Tead Off » Nov 13th, '12, 04:28

theredbaron wrote:A few posts above i have described what i would do (and will do when i move back to Europe):


Don't forget to take into account the 'cardinal directions', deciding which side of the street the puerh will be facing. For this, you must call in the local Feng Shui master and the resident astrologer for your town. Essential in making any decision about anything. But you already knew that, yes? :lol:

Where in Europe will you move to? Is there life after Asia? :wink:
User avatar
Tead Off
Vendor Member
 
Posts: 3487
Joined: Apr 1st, '0
Location: Bangkok

Re: Regarding long term storage

Postby theredbaron » Nov 13th, '12, 05:20

Tead Off wrote:
theredbaron wrote:A few posts above i have described what i would do (and will do when i move back to Europe):


Don't forget to take into account the 'cardinal directions', deciding which side of the street the puerh will be facing. For this, you must call in the local Feng Shui master and the resident astrologer for your town. Essential in making any decision about anything. But you already knew that, yes? :lol:

Where in Europe will you move to? Is there life after Asia? :wink:


:lol: ...my aunt is into esoteric stuff - i am quite sure that she'll come up with some sort of a crystal that will magically draw on the energies of long drunk legendary Pu Erh to transform my ordinary teas into the elixir of life...

Sometimes i wish for a bit less life, the last years especially i have had a bit too much excitement.
I want to have a normal regular life, for a change. That would be exiting! ;)

It'll be Munich, i guess. I have been born there, it's close to the mountains, close to Italy, and quite boring, but very safe :)
theredbaron
 
Posts: 492
Joined: Aug 1st, '1
Location: Bangkok

PreviousNext

Instant Messenger

Permissions
You cannot post new topics
You cannot reply to topics
You cannot edit your posts
You cannot delete your posts
You cannot post attachments
Navigation