TeaChat

I think splitting the thread would be a good move Chip - we've gotten a little off track with this one.

wyardley wrote:

gingkoseto wrote:

wyardley wrote: I have had old tea which have supposedly had only purely natural storage (though not in sealed bags), and even some of these are a bit too aggressive tasting for my taste sometimes, even after 40-50 years.

This is a bit surprising to me. Most dry-stored tea of 15-20 years old would taste mild enough for me. So either we have very different tastes or the 40-50 years old tea you had was rather an outlier?

Well, I definitely prefer older tea which is smooth and has lost its bitterness and astringency, and where the tastes start to become integrated. That doesn't seem to happen without at least some period of humid storage to one degree or another.

Depends on the tea, I guess, but I generally don't enjoy drinking 15-20 year old tea (i.e., mid to late 90s) which has been purely dry stored for its entire life. Some can taste good if the tea was pretty smooth to start with, but they don't taste "aged" to me, and some of it can be quite harsh, especially anything with tight compression (Xiaguan tuo, tiebing).

With older stuff, I've noticed that some huangyin, in particular (the purely raw ones) can be fairly bitter even after quite some time.

I have tried certain pu'ers (generally lower grade stuff) which have been stored sealed (though not vacuum sealed) to one degree or another, for example, late 80s / early 90s fangcha, mid-90s tuocha, and none have been pleasant experiences.

Very interesting comparison!
Hope we can have opportunity to drink together, including the low grade stuff. I've found some low grade leaves (such as the xiaguan mushroom and low grade tuo) aging much faster than some more refined tea.

TIM wrote:From someone I admired greatly for his passion, sincerity and the love of the leaf.

"Enjoy these post, make sure to read all the way to last paragraph, more than you'll get out of most blogs! " Quoted from Mr. B.

http://teaurchin.blogspot.com/2012/04/w ... g-zhi.html

http://teaurchin.blogspot.com/2011/10/h ... ently.html

Very informative blog. I had never given it a serious look before. Big mistake. Now corrected. Many thanks.

Just saw this blog post relating to bag storage. http://www.zhizhengtea.com/puerblog/tea-storage/

Just a thought after reading that blog. Having it sealed will help retained the freshness and flavor, but will slow down the aging process / fermentation process.

To my limited knowledge, storing pu erh is mainly about the temperature, humidity and keeping it from "alien" smell. I wonder what happen if you seal pu erh with more air (more water vapor) with correct temperature.

The sealing will keep pu erh own aroma from escaping while blocking unwanted outside from coming in. The extra air means more water content within the seal.

Maybe I should give it a try. Zip lock a cake without pushing out all the air when the humidity is around 75-80%. Wonder if it'll improve the aging and retain the flavor. Edit: I think 65% humidity will be better as mold required 70%, but I could be wrong.

While I have said this is a bad idea, I *do* have puerh minicakes inside tins, and a couple of cakes in ziploc bags. None that are banna teas, though. However, I do try to open these teas for inspection when it's very humid out.

As far as I understand it, taking the air out of a bag and sealing it would be akin to ultimate dry storage, with vacuum sealing being ultimate. Many drinkers like dry stored cakes without any musty odor or taste interfering with the teas natural aroma and flavor as the cake ages. Often, I've had cakes where the mustiness is just too much even after 15-20 brews. It pervades the tea. I would imagine that there are drinkers who have developed a love for this mustiness and think it's a desirable feature. I'm not here to sway votes one way or another, but storage techniques seem to lead to different results depending on what you're aiming for. I have my own personal preferences and wet is not one of them.

Wet storage refers to humidity above 80%, correct? So if it's lesser than 80%, it's consider natural. Dry being around 60-65% correct?

Think we'll only know the truth if we do the testing ourselves. Maybe I'll get 3 cheap XG tou or brick. One left put in paper envelope/box, one vacuum sealed and one zip lock with some air in it. Then store them together for 3-5years.

It's not an expensive test, though 3-5 years may not be enough But it'll give an idea what's most suitable.

lordsbm wrote:Wet storage refers to humidity above 80%, correct? So if it's lesser than 80%, it's consider natural. Dry being around 60-65% correct?

I don't think there's one set of numbers that everyone would be able to agree on.

To me, though, the difference between so-called wet-storage and "natural" storage is mostly whether the environment is intentionally humid (these days, usually adding humidity somehow, though I guess you could consider storage in a very damp place like a basement wet also). Temperature is also a big consideration, so I don't think you can just give a number as some kind of cut-off. In most types of traditional or wet storage, the most intensive period of humid storage is early in the tea's life, after which it would likely be progressively dried out (or, in some cases, sold wholesale).

I would consider most storage in an area's normal humidity (even if that's fairly high) to be "natural" storage. If you've had tea that's been naturally stored in humid places like Taiwan, Malaysia, etc., but hasn't had intentional wet storage, it is very different. That's even more the case if the tea has been stored in someone's house, given that a house is more likely to have humidity and temperature control than a warehouse.

And yeah, I would think that storage in the 60% range would be considered "dry", again, depending on temperature.

gasninja wrote:Just saw this blog post relating to bag storage. http://www.zhizhengtea.com/puerblog/tea-storage/

I think we really need to start a new thread on storage. This is way out of path?

nada wrote:I think splitting the thread would be a good move Chip - we've gotten a little off track with this one.

I will endeavor to do this.

TIM wrote:

gasninja wrote:Just saw this blog post relating to bag storage. http://www.zhizhengtea.com/puerblog/tea-storage/

I think we really need to start a new thread on storage. This is way out of path?

Please do!

Hmmm, well actually, when I split it there will be a new thread on storage ...

TIM wrote:

gasninja wrote:Just saw this blog post relating to bag storage. http://www.zhizhengtea.com/puerblog/tea-storage/

I think we really need to start a new thread on storage. This is way out of path?

Okay, back on topic.

I'm curious to know how you came to use this phrase 'oolong puerh'. Is it a term that you created or did you hear about this from someone else? It's an interesting concept, but like all concepts, fact and fiction intertwine. How much fact can be stated at present? I'd very much like to know.

Tead Off wrote:

TIM wrote:

gasninja wrote:Just saw this blog post relating to bag storage. http://www.zhizhengtea.com/puerblog/tea-storage/

I think we really need to start a new thread on storage. This is way out of path?

Okay, back on topic.

I'm curious to know how you came to use this phrase 'oolong puerh'. Is it a term that you created or did you hear about this from someone else? It's an interesting concept, but like all concepts, fact and fiction intertwine. How much fact can be stated at present? I'd very much like to know.

having you being reading the history of this topic, or you are being lazy?

TIM wrote:

Tead Off wrote:

TIM wrote:

gasninja wrote:Just saw this blog post relating to bag storage. http://www.zhizhengtea.com/puerblog/tea-storage/

I think we really need to start a new thread on storage. This is way out of path?

Okay, back on topic.

I'm curious to know how you came to use this phrase 'oolong puerh'. Is it a term that you created or did you hear about this from someone else? It's an interesting concept, but like all concepts, fact and fiction intertwine. How much fact can be stated at present? I'd very much like to know.

having you being reading the history of this topic, or you are being lazy?

Yes, I've been following along. My first question was very specific. Did you 'coin' this phrase or did you hear this expression from someone else? I think it's a very clever phrase and a very interesting discussion.

Secondly, no one has answered my original question about who has 10 years experience drinking these so-called 'oolong puerhs' which are aromatic but become flat in 10 years? Does this apply to every young, green sheng which has high aromatic qualities, good looking leaves, and processed in the traditional ways?

Ten years, nope. Around 7 yep. I suspect there are a lot of teachatters with flat 7 year old cakes. Do I think they will magically become unflat in three years? Nope.