Aging tea in NYC


One of the intentionally aged teas, Pu-Erh has a loyal following.

Postby bonescwa » May 10th, '14, 16:39

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Re: Aging tea in NYC

Postby Exempt » May 10th, '14, 20:09

bonescwa wrote:
Exempt wrote:
bonescwa wrote:
Exempt wrote:
bonescwa wrote:I wonder if Northeast storage in general will produce results similar to dry storage in Yunnan, Kunming, etc.

The average temp in new york is 47 F and the average humidity is 60%. The average temp and humidity in Kunming is 58 F and 71% respectively. So just based on that I would say no, the results would not be similar. Beyond that, the microclimas in each location, the types of bacteria and chemicals, and many other factors are completely different. The only way to reproduce Kunming storage is to store tea in Kunming IMO


Sounds close enough to me...

Given the fact that a 10 degree change adds about 3.5 grams of water per cubic meter of moisture content, added to the 11% higher humidity? It's not close at all, and that's just looking at humidity. The totally different location in the world would create 2 totally different teas if stored the same amount of time in both locations.

It's not going to create a detectable change over time, it's a placebo effect if you think you can really tell a difference.

I beg to differ. I've had the exact same tea stored in different warehouses in the same city in China that have aged with drastic differences. The large difference in moisture content combined with differences in bacteria and atmosphere makeup will make it very easy to tell that the teas were stored different areas. Just out of curiosity, what is your experience with puerh storage and tasting? Do you store and age your own tea, collect tea, drink tea often, occasionally? Not doubting your experience, just wondering how you're forming your opinion
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Re:

Postby Exempt » May 10th, '14, 20:10

bonescwa wrote:http://cdo.ncdc.noaa.gov/climaps/rh2313.pdf

Can't get this to load
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Re: Aging tea in NYC

Postby bonescwa » May 11th, '14, 08:13

Exempt wrote:
bonescwa wrote:
Exempt wrote:
bonescwa wrote:
Exempt wrote:
bonescwa wrote:I wonder if Northeast storage in general will produce results similar to dry storage in Yunnan, Kunming, etc.

The average temp in new york is 47 F and the average humidity is 60%. The average temp and humidity in Kunming is 58 F and 71% respectively. So just based on that I would say no, the results would not be similar. Beyond that, the microclimas in each location, the types of bacteria and chemicals, and many other factors are completely different. The only way to reproduce Kunming storage is to store tea in Kunming IMO


Sounds close enough to me...

Given the fact that a 10 degree change adds about 3.5 grams of water per cubic meter of moisture content, added to the 11% higher humidity? It's not close at all, and that's just looking at humidity. The totally different location in the world would create 2 totally different teas if stored the same amount of time in both locations.

It's not going to create a detectable change over time, it's a placebo effect if you think you can really tell a difference.

I beg to differ. I've had the exact same tea stored in different warehouses in the same city in China that have aged with drastic differences. The large difference in moisture content combined with differences in bacteria and atmosphere makeup will make it very easy to tell that the teas were stored different areas. Just out of curiosity, what is your experience with puerh storage and tasting? Do you store and age your own tea, collect tea, drink tea often, occasionally? Not doubting your experience, just wondering how you're forming your opinion


You're probably right then. I'm not coming to this with any real experience at all, I'm just looking at it as a frugal person who I like to believe has common sense.
I drink aged oolong which is recommended to be as dry stored as possible, and I feel it has the same attributes that it seems people desire in an aged puerh. However, I have only drank a few samples of some 20+ yo sheng so I might not be accurate in that regard. I am trying to look at this process without dogma, and the process of oxidation of anything at all will basically occur in non - desert conditions. Maybe the goal should be oxidation of the outside layer with preservation of the chemical structure of the core of the leaf, and slower aging would benefit. The wet stored samples I have had all pretty much ran together into the same taste, because the whole leaf was effected by the storage process. This is also what happens to shu, and why the process plays a much larger role in the taste rather than any distinctive flavor or aroma the leaves may have had to start with. I just find it hard to believe that 10 degrees of temperature and percentage points of humidity are going to make a noticeable difference in the long run. The pdf just shows humidity data of the US. No disrespect, I understand that there are people on this forum who have experience with tea for longer than I've been alive, I'm just thinking out loud.
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Re: Aging tea in NYC

Postby .m. » May 11th, '14, 12:42

Exempt wrote:
bonescwa wrote:
Exempt wrote:
bonescwa wrote:I wonder if Northeast storage in general will produce results similar to dry storage in Yunnan, Kunming, etc.

The average temp in new york is 47 F and the average humidity is 60%. The average temp and humidity in Kunming is 58 F and 71% respectively. So just based on that I would say no, the results would not be similar. Beyond that, the microclimas in each location, the types of bacteria and chemicals, and many other factors are completely different. The only way to reproduce Kunming storage is to store tea in Kunming IMO


Sounds close enough to me...

Given the fact that a 10 degree change adds about 3.5 grams of water per cubic meter of moisture content, added to the 11% higher humidity? It's not close at all, and that's just looking at humidity. The totally different location in the world would create 2 totally different teas if stored the same amount of time in both locations.

Agreed.

Just to mention the obvious: humidity depends heavily on temperature (100% humidity in low temperature still means that the air does contain almost no water at all). If one can trust the graph here: https://www.e-education.psu.edu/egee102/node/2102 , then 60%RH at 50F corresponds to something like 40%RH at 60F.

:)
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Re: Aging tea in NYC

Postby kyarazen » May 11th, '14, 13:24

just to throw in a spanner in the storage issue, its probably not exactly the humidity that matters (although that is the way the tea cake gets water), but the amount of water content in the tea cake.

so if you have 7 cakes wrapped in a tong, with the bamboo sheets well covering the tea, the tea cakes inside do not pick up moisture as quickly, the bamboo sheets become a "slowing" barrier. if you have your tea cakes bare, piece by piece, then there's no more barrier (since the paper wrapping is not at all protective), the cake will be more easily affected by the humidity changes.

then comes in the issue of compression, if the tea cake is too highly compressed, humidity issues will affect just the surface, and by the time the core of the cake picks up a water content increase, the weather might have changed. if its loosely compressed or as loose leaves, humidity fluxes will affect it too....
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Re: Aging tea in NYC

Postby Exempt » May 11th, '14, 13:36

bonescwa wrote:
Exempt wrote:
bonescwa wrote:
Exempt wrote:
bonescwa wrote:
Exempt wrote:
bonescwa wrote:I wonder if Northeast storage in general will produce results similar to dry storage in Yunnan, Kunming, etc.

The average temp in new york is 47 F and the average humidity is 60%. The average temp and humidity in Kunming is 58 F and 71% respectively. So just based on that I would say no, the results would not be similar. Beyond that, the microclimas in each location, the types of bacteria and chemicals, and many other factors are completely different. The only way to reproduce Kunming storage is to store tea in Kunming IMO


Sounds close enough to me...

Given the fact that a 10 degree change adds about 3.5 grams of water per cubic meter of moisture content, added to the 11% higher humidity? It's not close at all, and that's just looking at humidity. The totally different location in the world would create 2 totally different teas if stored the same amount of time in both locations.

It's not going to create a detectable change over time, it's a placebo effect if you think you can really tell a difference.

I beg to differ. I've had the exact same tea stored in different warehouses in the same city in China that have aged with drastic differences. The large difference in moisture content combined with differences in bacteria and atmosphere makeup will make it very easy to tell that the teas were stored different areas. Just out of curiosity, what is your experience with puerh storage and tasting? Do you store and age your own tea, collect tea, drink tea often, occasionally? Not doubting your experience, just wondering how you're forming your opinion


You're probably right then. I'm not coming to this with any real experience at all, I'm just looking at it as a frugal person who I like to believe has common sense.
I drink aged oolong which is recommended to be as dry stored as possible, and I feel it has the same attributes that it seems people desire in an aged puerh. However, I have only drank a few samples of some 20+ yo sheng so I might not be accurate in that regard. I am trying to look at this process without dogma, and the process of oxidation of anything at all will basically occur in non - desert conditions. Maybe the goal should be oxidation of the outside layer with preservation of the chemical structure of the core of the leaf, and slower aging would benefit. The wet stored samples I have had all pretty much ran together into the same taste, because the whole leaf was effected by the storage process. This is also what happens to shu, and why the process plays a much larger role in the taste rather than any distinctive flavor or aroma the leaves may have had to start with. I just find it hard to believe that 10 degrees of temperature and percentage points of humidity are going to make a noticeable difference in the long run. The pdf just shows humidity data of the US. No disrespect, I understand that there are people on this forum who have experience with tea for longer than I've been alive, I'm just thinking out loud.

The tea cakes will certainly age, but each city and location that tea is stored in has a particular microclima that will age the tea in a different way. If you don't mind the tea aging slowly then certainly give it a try, and if you'd like to age it faster build a cheap pumidor.
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Re: Aging tea in NYC

Postby Exempt » May 11th, '14, 13:37

.m. wrote:
Exempt wrote:
bonescwa wrote:
Exempt wrote:
bonescwa wrote:I wonder if Northeast storage in general will produce results similar to dry storage in Yunnan, Kunming, etc.

The average temp in new york is 47 F and the average humidity is 60%. The average temp and humidity in Kunming is 58 F and 71% respectively. So just based on that I would say no, the results would not be similar. Beyond that, the microclimas in each location, the types of bacteria and chemicals, and many other factors are completely different. The only way to reproduce Kunming storage is to store tea in Kunming IMO


Sounds close enough to me...

Given the fact that a 10 degree change adds about 3.5 grams of water per cubic meter of moisture content, added to the 11% higher humidity? It's not close at all, and that's just looking at humidity. The totally different location in the world would create 2 totally different teas if stored the same amount of time in both locations.

Agreed.

Just to mention the obvious: humidity depends heavily on temperature (100% humidity in low temperature still means that the air does contain almost no water at all). If one can trust the graph here: https://www.e-education.psu.edu/egee102/node/2102 , then 60%RH at 50F corresponds to something like 40%RH at 60F.

:)

This is a great visual representation of what I was trying to say, thanks :mrgreen:
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Re: Aging tea in NYC

Postby bonescwa » May 12th, '14, 09:40

Exempt wrote:
bonescwa wrote:
Exempt wrote:
bonescwa wrote:
Exempt wrote:
bonescwa wrote:
Exempt wrote:
bonescwa wrote:I wonder if Northeast storage in general will produce results similar to dry storage in Yunnan, Kunming, etc.

The average temp in new york is 47 F and the average humidity is 60%. The average temp and humidity in Kunming is 58 F and 71% respectively. So just based on that I would say no, the results would not be similar. Beyond that, the microclimas in each location, the types of bacteria and chemicals, and many other factors are completely different. The only way to reproduce Kunming storage is to store tea in Kunming IMO


Sounds close enough to me...

Given the fact that a 10 degree change adds about 3.5 grams of water per cubic meter of moisture content, added to the 11% higher humidity? It's not close at all, and that's just looking at humidity. The totally different location in the world would create 2 totally different teas if stored the same amount of time in both locations.

It's not going to create a detectable change over time, it's a placebo effect if you think you can really tell a difference.

I beg to differ. I've had the exact same tea stored in different warehouses in the same city in China that have aged with drastic differences. The large difference in moisture content combined with differences in bacteria and atmosphere makeup will make it very easy to tell that the teas were stored different areas. Just out of curiosity, what is your experience with puerh storage and tasting? Do you store and age your own tea, collect tea, drink tea often, occasionally? Not doubting your experience, just wondering how you're forming your opinion


You're probably right then. I'm not coming to this with any real experience at all, I'm just looking at it as a frugal person who I like to believe has common sense.
I drink aged oolong which is recommended to be as dry stored as possible, and I feel it has the same attributes that it seems people desire in an aged puerh. However, I have only drank a few samples of some 20+ yo sheng so I might not be accurate in that regard. I am trying to look at this process without dogma, and the process of oxidation of anything at all will basically occur in non - desert conditions. Maybe the goal should be oxidation of the outside layer with preservation of the chemical structure of the core of the leaf, and slower aging would benefit. The wet stored samples I have had all pretty much ran together into the same taste, because the whole leaf was effected by the storage process. This is also what happens to shu, and why the process plays a much larger role in the taste rather than any distinctive flavor or aroma the leaves may have had to start with. I just find it hard to believe that 10 degrees of temperature and percentage points of humidity are going to make a noticeable difference in the long run. The pdf just shows humidity data of the US. No disrespect, I understand that there are people on this forum who have experience with tea for longer than I've been alive, I'm just thinking out loud.

The tea cakes will certainly age, but each city and location that tea is stored in has a particular microclima that will age the tea in a different way. If you don't mind the tea aging slowly then certainly give it a try, and if you'd like to age it faster build a cheap pumidor.

That's the conventional wisdom I've been hearing since I started, but I wonder what the discrepancy in advice is between aging oolong and aging Puerh when the end results seem rather similar.
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Re: Aging tea in NYC

Postby Balthazar » May 12th, '14, 10:01

Oolong and puer are processed very differently, no? Isn't that the reason for the common complaint of "Oolong Puerh processing"? See this thread.
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Re: Aging tea in NYC

Postby bonescwa » May 12th, '14, 10:46

Balthazar wrote:Oolong and puer are processed very differently, no? Isn't that the reason for the common complaint of "Oolong Puerh processing"? See this thread.


Obviously, but I'm not talking about the way processing effects aging or complaining about modern puerh processing. I'm talking about the "aged tea" taste both aged oolongs and aged puerh have in common and why their storage recommendations are antithetical to each other.
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Re: Aging tea in NYC

Postby Balthazar » May 12th, '14, 12:12

I know very little about these things, but if puer and oolong is processed different, it is reasonable to expect that they behave to the same exposure over time somewhat differently? I always thought so, but then again I have almost no experience with aged oolong, so I'll wait for someone with more experience to answer...
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Re: Aging tea in NYC

Postby bonescwa » May 12th, '14, 14:44

Balthazar wrote:I know very little about these things, but if puer and oolong is processed different, it is reasonable to expect that they behave to the same exposure over time somewhat differently? I always thought so, but then again I have almost no experience with aged oolong, so I'll wait for someone with more experience to answer...


That's the question. Black, white, and oolong are processed differently but everyone says the drier the storage the better for aging. Maybe wet storage exists because puerh was just too harsh and bitter to drink new and they didn't really have a choice. They can't change the climate of Southeast Asia and it's not like they had AC. Of course traditional storage will always be the classic essence of puerh but that doesn't necessarily mean that dry storage will not age the tea, or even damage it. If I'm paying good money for a tong of new tea, I better be confident that it's not going to be garbage in 10 years without having to go through all that pumidor stuff.
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Re: Aging tea in NYC

Postby shah82 » May 12th, '14, 14:57

Hongcha and Heicha ages more or less the same. Hongcha is less substantial and soft because of smaller, tenderer leaves and fermentation.

Greens and Oolongs do not age the same as Heicha does, those guys are almost always fully fixed in the enzyme deactivation sense. While I have often found similarities in how yancha and puerh ages, especially in the short term of 7-10 years, other oolong do not really age much the same way at all. Aging puerh is about rotting the leaves. How brown it is, is how rotted it is. I suspect that well roasted oolongs rich in minerals, such as higher mountain or winter growth leaves, will age in vaguely the same direction for similar reasons of leaf decomposition via roasting.

Conversely, I'm thinking that the drier the storage, the more like an oolong a puerh will age, and the greater the risk that it will develop faults like badly stored oolong, just not as badly.
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Re: Aging tea in NYC

Postby shah82 » May 12th, '14, 19:23

Obviously relevant link for this thread...

http://www.linkedin.com/groupAnswers?tr ... =271317424
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