TeaChat

TIM wrote:
I thought we are talking about Taiwanese oolong? Not anxi right?

Yes it started with DYL and stem vs leaves and the topic just flows. Just like Jazz.

Oops! now I am OT talking about Jazz.

I did a little bit of experimenting with this tea (I'm the one who asked the initial question) and found that it was the same with/without stems. Thing is, before the first steep it would be hard to identify the stems, they're kind of curled up with the tea, but after steeped they open up and you see them more easily. I found this tea a little harder to brew but once I dialled in temp and brew time I enjoyed it. That said, I wouldn't buy it again. My next attempt with taiwan high mountain will be several, small batches from Taiwan Tea Crafts (recommendations? )

entropyembrace wrote:

Tead Off wrote: And, while we're at it, the idea of calling a semi-oxidized tea grown in a different country other than China, ie., India (Darjeeling), or Japan, an oolong, is not correct, IMO. They should be referred to as semi-oxidized teas. They neither taste nor resemble oolongs in any way except that they are oxidized to a degree.

What do any two Chinese oolongs have in common that oolong from another country doesn't have?

Cultivars and processing. There is also terroir involved. The idea of not calling a semi oxidized tea an oolong is not my original idea. It was put into my mind by an owner of a Nepali Tea Garden of high repute that makes a semi oxidized tea. He doesn't want to call his tea an oolong so how should he describe it? It's an interesting question.

Leo Kwan does a pretty good article on this very subject here: teaguardian.com/what-is-tea/semi-fermented-tea-vs-oolong-1.html#.Uuu9d_uE6jc

M.

+1. I think he said it better than I did.

MEversbergII wrote:Leo Kwan does a pretty good article on this very subject here: teaguardian.com/what-is-tea/semi-fermented-tea-vs-oolong-1.html#.Uuu9d_uE6jc

M.

Obviously if the producer is not taking the effort to produce oolong tea properly, and is simply aborting the fermentation of black tea early it's going to be different. I don't think anyone is arguing that these teas are the same as traditional oolong.

What I meant to say is when the producer is actually taking the effort to produce real oolong tea in another country (like Zealong) it's not really different from oolong produced in China.

I really doubt anyone can tell by the "terrior" especially considering how much variety there is among traditional oolong producing regions in China.

entropyembrace wrote: I really doubt anyone can tell by the "terrior" especially considering how much variety there is among traditional oolong producing regions in China.

I read or heard somewhere that the traditional explanation for camphor flavour in some puerh comes from growing in close proximity to camphor trees. If there is anything to that, it would suggest otherwise. I can't judge that statement though.

I think growing conditions can influence the taste of tea to some degree, but I definitely believe in processing+varietal trumps terroir.

I do not believe in terroir in the literal way that the terroirists believe in, and I think this way of thinking has been pretty well debunked; see, e.g.,
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/style ... tdirt.html

That is, tea that's grown in certain environments (high altitude, rocky soil, etc.) may grow differently because of stress, depth of roots, etc., but the tea does not literally taste like the substances it grows in.

bliss wrote: I read or heard somewhere that the traditional explanation for camphor flavour in some puerh comes from growing in close proximity to camphor trees. If there is anything to that, it would suggest otherwise. I can't judge that statement though.

I have heard these stories, though I'm personally skeptical. Also, while you could say that maybe the aroma comes from something above the ground scenting the leaves, I live on a street lined with camphor trees, and the aroma is not strong - it's only if you cut into the tree (for example, when the roots were trimmed) that you really get much camphor aroma.

wyardley wrote:I think growing conditions can influence the taste of tea to some degree, but I definitely believe in processing+varietal trumps terroir.

I do not believe in terroir in the literal way that the terroirists believe in, and I think this way of thinking has been pretty well debunked; see, e.g.,
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/style ... tdirt.html

That is, tea that's grown in certain environments (high altitude, rocky soil, etc.) may grow differently because of stress, depth of roots, etc., but the tea does not literally taste like the substances it grows in.

I agree 100% with you on this

I'm not sure how you would separate terroir from varietal + processing. The soil which something is grown in becomes integral in the tea or wine. Terroir exists and has influence. Can one really say one trumps another? Perhaps the 'style' is influenced more by the processing, not the deep core of the tea and what the processing has to work with.

wyardley wrote:

bliss wrote: I read or heard somewhere that the traditional explanation for camphor flavour in some puerh comes from growing in close proximity to camphor trees. If there is anything to that, it would suggest otherwise. I can't judge that statement though.

I have heard these stories, though I'm personally skeptical. Also, while you could say that maybe the aroma comes from something above the ground scenting the leaves, I live on a street lined with camphor trees, and the aroma is not strong - it's only if you cut into the tree (for example, when the roots were trimmed) that you really get much camphor aroma.

What about millenniums of camphor leaves, branches and trunks molting down into soil? Such a soil would definitely be unique in some ways. Just a thought that struck me when I was thinking about this. I know very little about how the extraction of minerals and other goodies (oils??) from soil via roots actually works.

entropyembrace wrote:

wyardley wrote:I think growing conditions can influence the taste of tea to some degree, but I definitely believe in processing+varietal trumps terroir.

I do not believe in terroir in the literal way that the terroirists believe in, and I think this way of thinking has been pretty well debunked; see, e.g.,
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/style ... tdirt.html

That is, tea that's grown in certain environments (high altitude, rocky soil, etc.) may grow differently because of stress, depth of roots, etc., but the tea does not literally taste like the substances it grows in.

I agree 100% with you on this

+1

What I heard is that some vendors store Puer in Camphor wood boxes to absorb the smell. These are the same box that is used for storing painting to ward off insect. Of course the easiest way is to add artificial camphor fragrance to the tea.
Well, these are the tea that I definately avoid.

Cheers!

Bliss, it's possible for the plant to take up compounds that eventually end up in the final product.

Hell, that's why the goiter belt exists!

M.

bliss wrote: What about millenniums of camphor leaves, branches and trunks molting down into soil? Such a soil would definitely be unique in some ways. Just a thought that struck me when I was thinking about this. I know very little about how the extraction of minerals and other goodies (oils??) from soil via roots actually works.

Plant roots selectively uptake nutrients from the soil. Other than a few exceptions chemicals can only enter the roots of plants if the plant is producing transport proteins specifically to acquire that substance from the soil. Since camphor is not a nutrient which plants use (it's a toxin a few closely related plants produce for protection) I find it extremely unlikely that tea trees would acquire camphor from the soil.

Also, soil bacteria have enzymes to degrade camphor, so all those millennia of camphor trees being degraded in the soil? the camphor is being degraded by bacteria too. Some of them even use it as a carbon source (food).

The comparison with iodide isn't valid. Iodide is a simple ion which is a micronutrient required by most forms of life. The plants are taking iodide from the soil because they need it too, not because they're randomly taking everything from the soil.