Tie Guan Yin in Gaiwan and Yixing 3 questions

[Herb_Master]

I am still playing with DanCongs at the moment but itching to get into my Tie Guan Yin. Doing a little early research to best see how to make it in both Gaiwan and Yixing, I came across another tea site I had not paid much attention to before.

WanlingTeaHouse Shanghai, and pleased to see that they have opened a UK branch, I hope it prospers and expands it's range.

Wan Ling gives many pages of useful info, the 'Traditional Anxi Brewing Method' caught my attention.

http://www.wanlingteahouse.com/english/ ... onal.shtml

First question
She describes Gaiwans according to weight!

These gai wan's come in a variety of sizes such as 7g, 8g, 9g or 10g which indicate the amount of dry tea leaves that can be added. Normally, Wan Ling uses 7g & 10g gai wans.

I have only come across Gaiwan's described as 90ml,100ml, 120ml,150ml,200ml.
Can anyone verify which volumes may be which given weight as described by Wan Ling.

her 1st Infusion is the wash, and she approximates the following 6 'rea' infusions in pairs for steeping purposes.

The second infusion is called the “actual infusion”. When preparing the second & third infusions of Oolong tea such as Tie Guan Yin the water should be left in the tea leaves for 10-15 seconds before being poured through the strainer. Forth & fifth infusions, 20 seconds then the sixth & seventh infusions should be around 60 seconds.

2nd Question
Now as the Brewing Method is called 'Traditional Anxi Brewing Method' [On the page that the reference I followed to get to this page] is this likely to be for a 'Traditional' Roast.

If so how would you vary the steeping for a very lightly roasted 'Modern' TGY?

3rd Question
I see from her 'Modern Brewing Style' page that the tea is not poured out from a Fair Cup but ladled out with a spoon
Does anyone [has anyone tried] use a spoon ?http://www.wanlingteahouse.com/english/ ... dern.shtml

4th Question
Going back to 'Traditional' - Those of you who have mastered equally the Yixing and the Gaiwan might know - in a Yixing would you vary the steeping times to those for a Gaiwan?

[teaguy]

Hey there! Glad you're getting interested in TKYs. You should try some of the Taiwan varieties as well for comparison.

To help you out with your questions:

#1: The standard ratio of tea to water is 1.5g / 50cc of water. The 10g gaiwan they mention using in their demo is most likely around 350cc. You can estimate the other gaiwans accordingly.

Rinsing the tea first is best used with low or mid-quality teas of dubious sources. If you drink high quality teas (especially certified organic) rinsing removes a lot of the healthy stuff you should be drinking anyway (especially with oolongs). Aged teas, of course, should always be rinsed (sometimes more than once).

The timings given should be followed only generally; you may prefer a stronger brew (or lighter), so play with the timing a bit until you like what you taste. Also, you don't always want to pour the water from high up - that will lower the temperature of the water more than you think, and could ruin the tea. Of course, if the water is too hot, you may need to pour it like that, or even put it into a serving pitcher first, let it cool a bit, then pour it over the tea. There are a lot of variables at play there, so experiment around with it.

#2: Traditional refers to the preferred style of Anxi, and isn't related to the roasting of the tea. Lighter roasted teas can generally steep a bit longer. You can start with the suggestions given, and adjust to suit your taste. There really isn't a 'right' or 'wrong' way, although for competition purposes judges usually look for a mid-range that isn't too light or strong.

#3: You can see in the picture that she's poured the tea into a bowl, which is not a fair cup. She uses the spoon because the bowl doesn't have a spout, although it mentions they sometimes just pour from the bowl. Spoons are used for testing & comparing teas. Standard amounts of tea (usually 3g) are brewed for 6 minutes. You dip a porcelain spoon (like the one she has) into the bowl, swirl it, then smell the back of the spoon to analyze the aroma. After that, you spoon 1 scoop into a cup for tasting, rinse the spoon, and move on to the next sample.

Here are some related articles with pictures if you're interested.
http://www.taiwanteaguy.com/2008/04/15/ ... -roasting/
http://www.taiwanteaguy.com/2008/06/08/ ... ond-round/
http://www.taiwanteaguy.com/2008/06/09/tea-competition/

#4: Clay tends to hold heat better than porcelain, and higher heat draws more flavor out of the tea. Depending (again) on your tastes, you might use slightly shorter brews with the clay pot.

Hope that helps out a little. Keep in mind that many teashops have their own variations of techniques (and reasons why their methods are the best), so don't take anyone too literally (even me ). A good rule I was given is this: There isn't a right and wrong way to brew tea, as long as it comes out the way you intend it to. The trick is to learn how different techniques affect the tea.

Damn! It's time for me to go to bed (about midnight here in Taipei), and I'm thinking about having another cup of TKY!!! Good luck with your brewing!

[TIM]

Your 2nd question: These giawan style are not for traditional roast. For most Canton/Chaozhou TGY drinkers, traditional style means high fired or refined TGY. How the water hitting the giawan is the most important point for this kind of Greener/ligher TGY brewing. Done properly, it should create a rolling effects which enhance the aroma on the second pour.

3rd question: Using a spoon is a traditional Taiwanese style tasting, which are mostly for Min-nan tea. This style have been around since the 50's.

Cheers

[gingkoseto]

For question 1, you really have to email her to find out what she means. The amount of tea and water, varies between tea contests and daily life tea drinking. And in daily life, of course everyone would adjust it based on personal preferences. The tea mentioned by this vendor, I believe it's green roast, which dominates Anxi now.

The common saying is, 7g tea for 120ml gaiwan. 5g tea for 100ml, 10g tea for 150-180ml. But in tea contests, they usually use 5g tea for 120 volume gaiwan. A few people told me in Anxi tea contests, they use minutes-long infusion (I don't remember how many minutes, but >=2), which sounds bazaar, but I believe it's true. But people don't do it in daily life drinking.

Question 2 and 3, I don't think "traditional" method means for traditional tea. Most people use the "traditional" method stated here. The modern method is more like the tea contest method (with a spoon). It's not commonly used in daily life. I guess it's called "modern" mainly because it was developed in modern time, not existing from traditional era.

But overall only the vendor can clarify what she meant in the description, because generally the roast, method, proportions, and infusion time all vary a lot. In daily drinking, unless they make a detailed table form with everything listed, most of the time it's up to you to adjust the parameters and find out what's the best. Like a Japanese zen master said, no one should/could take away your opportunities or exploring and struggling by giving answers to your questions.

Taiwan Mu Zha TGY is somewhat different from Anxi TGY. It's mainly darker roast and a whole different set of parameters are needed. So for Taiwan TGY, you should follow teaguy's instructions.

[Herb_Master]

Hey there! Glad you're getting interested in TKYs. You should try some of the Taiwan varieties as well for comparison.

Thanks, I intend one day to get around to Taiwan, but I am snowed under trying to get a good appreciation of Mainland China for the next few months.

TKY I first encountered in Malaysia, where it was a strong, rich brew on a par with the DHP that they serve in the Tea Trader's there when you sit down to taste a few before making purchases.

I far preferred the DHP and rich TKY to the Green Teas that I tried. Though liked them both.

Back home and ordering frenetically from online sites I was initially shocked to find all the Anxui's that I had ordered, Mao Xie and Ben Shan etc as well as a few TKY were all light and delicate, like Green Tea but better [IMO].

Several months and hundreds of hours reading Tea Books, and informative web sites, I understand the differences between lightly roasted moder, medium roast, and traditional full roast - now I have played with Wuyi for a couple of months, and Fenghuang for a couple of months, I am about to turn my attention to Anxi again, and try out my unopened TKY plus some already open, and some new ones that have just arrived.

I should be ready for Taiwan round about April. I do have some Dong Ding and WenShan Pouchong - in April or May I will want to look at Taiwan's TKY.



I have an unopened canister of TKY from Malaysia, so it is time to open it and compare with my online purchases.

[Herb_Master]

#1: The standard ratio of tea to water is 1.5g / 50cc of water.

Rinsing the tea first is best used with low or mid-quality teas of dubious sources. If you drink high quality teas (especially certified organic) rinsing removes a lot of the healthy stuff you should be drinking anyway (especially with oolongs).

Aged teas, of course, should always be rinsed (sometimes more than once).

That sounds good to me, I have been using about 4.5gm per 100cc for DanCongs with shorter steeps.

Do aged teas tend to need longer or shorter hotter or cooler steeps, or is it primarily the roast that determines.

#2: Traditional refers to the preferred style of Anxi, and isn't related to the roasting of the tea. Lighter roasted teas can generally steep a bit longer. You can start with the suggestions given, and adjust to suit your taste. There really isn't a 'right' or 'wrong' way, although for competition purposes judges usually look for a mid-range that isn't too light or strong.

That was the sort of advice I was looking for, within the orbits of taste first and vary of course, but start with a slighly longer steep for lighter roast.

#3: You can see in the picture that she's poured the tea into a bowl, which is not a fair cup. She uses the spoon because the bowl doesn't have a spout, although it mentions they sometimes just pour from the bowl. Spoons are used for testing & comparing teas. Standard amounts of tea (usually 3g) are brewed for 6 minutes. You dip a porcelain spoon (like the one she has) into the bowl, swirl it, then smell the back of the spoon to analyze the aroma. After that, you spoon 1 scoop into a cup for tasting, rinse the spoon, and move on to the next sample.

Thanks, I will give this ritual a miss until [if ever] I feel I am becoming masterly at assessing Oolong.

Here are some related articles with pictures if you're interested.

#4: Clay tends to hold heat better than porcelain, and higher heat draws more flavor out of the tea. Depending (again) on your tastes, you might use slightly shorter brews with the clay pot.

mmmn! I have been on your blog several times lately, I view it with interest and have already made a mental note to visit it more frequently when I move on to Taiwan tea. But I still pop back now and then. Not many new offerings since Christmas!

But another piece of advice I was hoping for an explanation that in a Yixing I may wish to lower the steep times. And presumably - when I am browsing the info about Yixing clay and all the wonderful properties that so many on this forum ascribe to particular clay - if the clay is described as having good heat retention I can go for a shorter brew than one that does not have strong heat retention properties.

Thank you for all your comments.

[Herb_Master]

Your 2nd question: These giawan style are not for traditional roast. For most Canton/Chaozhou TGY drinkers, traditional style means high fired or refined TGY. How the water hitting the giawan is the most important point for this kind of Greener/ligher TGY brewing. Done properly, it should create a rolling effects which enhance the aroma on the second pour.

Thanks Tim, I have doubts that my large clumsy hands will ever master that technique with such small vessels, but it has got to be worth trying to master the art!

I have been initiating my Gaiwan skills with DanCong and encouraged to fill the Gaiwan with leaf, then to try and miss the leaf when pouring the water in - very tricky
However with rolled pellets the same weight of TKY should leave enough space at the top of the Gaiwan to have a stab at doing it semi-properly

3rd question: Using a spoon is a traditional Taiwanese style tasting, which are mostly for Min-nan tea. This style have been around since the 50's.

Your reference to Min-Nan is interesting. I believe that the major emmigrations were from South Fujian to South Taiwan, and Wuyi Shan to North Taiwan.

Therefore are 'these Taiwan Style brewing and tasting' mainly representative of South and Central Taiwan rather than North Taiwan.

[Herb_Master]

Taiwan Mu Zha TGY is somewhat different from Anxi TGY. It's mainly darker roast and a whole different set of parameters are needed. So for Taiwan TGY, you should follow teaguy's instructions.

Thanks ginko, all points noted. But Mu Zha TGY sounds good, I can't wait for April / May - BUT I will - I have so much mainland stock at the moment!

[teaguy]

Glad to be of help! And I consider myself thoroughly chastised! I've had some wierd computer issues - couldn't get my photos to upload properly - and the holidays, etc. were a drain this year, so I'm behind on my blog, but getting back to work on it now.

Keep in touch in regards to the Taiwan trip. I'd love to pour you a cup of tea when you're here.

[Herb_Master]

Keep in touch in regards to the Taiwan trip. I'd love to pour you a cup of tea when you're here.

oops, sorry, I was not actually planning to visit Taiwan. Planning to start exploring Taiwan Oolongs.

I hope to visit Malaysia end of march, and shortly after my return will hope to start sampling Taiwan Oolongs in earnest!

[teaguy]

Malaysia's pretty close to Taiwan - and end of March, some of the spring teas will be ready!! You should seriously think about it . . . . . .

I'm working on translating some information on the teas my tea gurus here sell, and hope to have some Taiwan teas available through my website in the next few months.

[tjkoko_off]

Thanks to the help from a forum member, the brewing profile at which I've arrived for Jing Tea Shop 2008 An Xi TGY is as follows:

120ml gaiwan
3g AXTGY
Approx 100ml water at temp 185-195F
First infusion 30 sec, second infusion 60 sec

[Wan Ling]

Firstly thanks to Herb Master for introducing us to this great forum. Never realised the depth of interest here.

As Gingko suggested Herb Master contacted Wan Ling Tea House directly to review some of his questions, however to ensure that the original meaning is correctly explained we wanted to reply to the thread.

First question
She describes Gaiwans according to weight! Sad
Quote:
These gai wan's come in a variety of sizes such as 7g, 8g, 9g or 10g which indicate the amount of dry tea leaves that can be added. Normally, Wan Ling uses 7g & 10g gai wans.

I have only come across Gaiwan's described as 90ml,100ml, 120ml,150ml,200ml.
Can anyone verify which volumes may be which given weight as described by Wan Ling.

This was interesting point raised, I double checked and the 8g gai wan is around 100ml capacity.

2nd Question
Now as the Brewing Method is called 'Traditional Anxi Brewing Method' [On the page that the reference I followed to get to this page] is this likely to be for a 'Traditional' Roast.

If so how would you vary the steeping for a very lightly roasted 'Modern' TGY?

As the Teaguy pointed out, this style describes the process rather than a specific type of tea. The wonder, but also the challenge of Cha Dao, especially when communicating with others is how to express something that is fluid, but in static words. What may be a great way of preparing one type of tea, in one location, on certain day for one person, may be completely inappropriate for someone else. The aim of the 'Traditional Anxi brewing method' page is to provide a guide and starting point for which to begin experiments. Any other suggestions are welcomed - always good to try another method.

It is interesting to note that good quality TGY much more tolerant to variations in brewing styles and timings. Often when you are too busy talking and overlook decanting a tea then a great TGY, even after a few minutes will still produce a wonderful colour and flavoured liquor. Low quality TGY will often produce a liquor that looks like someone has added food colouring and is overwhelmingly strong.

3rd Question
I see from her 'Modern Brewing Style' page that the tea is not poured out from a Fair Cup but Shocked ladled out with a spoon Shocked
Does anyone [has anyone tried] use a spoon ?http://www.wanlingteahouse.com/english/ ... dern.shtml

Teaguy and Gongko answer this perfectly - thanks

4th Question
Going back to 'Traditional' - Those of you who have mastered equally the Yixing and the Gaiwan might know - in a Yixing would you vary the steeping times to those for a Gaiwan?

Good question, again a very personal one. The challenge normally when preparing tea in a zi sha tea pot is the time that it takes to pour. Even when using a 100-200ml pot it will usually take longer to decant the liquor than if you were using a gai wan. A beginners guide that Wan Ling uses is to wait for the pot to become dry (assuming to pour boiling water over the outside of the pot once the lid has been replaced) and then pour. This ensures that the pot's temperature is constant and balanced. The challenge with is that after the first 'actual' infusion that the TGY leaves open up and so the 3rd and 4th infusions could be a little strong - again this is something to experiment with to see how it matches your personal preferences.

I hope the above is of interest and use.

Thanks to the Adagio team for running such a good, open forum.

Happy tea drinking all,

Wan Ling Tea House