Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!


Discussion on virtually any teaware related item.

Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby Teaism » Feb 4th, '14, 00:50

chrl42 wrote:
Teaism wrote:You are right.

I know of a Korean sellers who deal antique Yixings, most of pots (in my eyes) are fakes. He doesn't have guts to take them on online, though..since there can be make attackers online. Many of pots...so expensive!

I don't claim to be expert of any kind, from now on I wanna refuse to comment such things. But it's a matter of artistic value and for ones who understand where their money go, his customers are at least the ones who can't weigh the values to money. In that, you are smarter than many Koreans. I do know his logics and formulas won't be applied in China and Taiwan.

Cheers and happy horse year! :)


Actually there are many reproduction grandmasters' Yixing pots made in the 90s for certain market by very highly skilled craftsman. And also a lot of grandmaster started as a reproduction craftsman. If we know that it is a reproduction and made of real good and genuine Zisha clay and very high workmanship, they can still be purchased at reasonable price for the purpose of appreciation. I have very very good reproduction Gu Jing Zhou, Xi Han Tang, Chou Quizhen and many grand masters reproduction pots and they are really very close to the real ones in terms of clay and workmanship and take an expert to spot it. But this was made known to me and I paid less than a bing of tea for a pot then, so I just enjoy its beauty. I heard pot like these even if you declared as reproduction they can easily command US$5k nowadays. That was from my past collections purchased in the 90s.

Anyway, many museums also use these reproduction pots to display and claim to be real. If you have visited some teapot museums in China in early 80s and now, you will notice that same pot on display now looks slightly different from those that was displayed.

Generally, the term of references for collection is very important. It should work in whatever terms of reference we have on what we want to collect. But still, we should not accept vendors who are out to deceive and con buyers in paying high prices for fake or reproductions without telling the truth.

So, whether right or wrong, it is good to be prudent and tread cautiously.

Happy Lunar New Year!

Cheers! :D
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby chrl42 » Feb 4th, '14, 01:12

Few things to ask you,

How do you know they are reproductions or real?

Or how do you know the fake goods went to museum, and tell me which museums if you can.

Most of reproductions are mould-used, the ones who can hand-make to reproduce as good as those masters, already give up making reproductions, those can make their own names without becoming a shameful thing in Yixing history.


you said, good reproductions can be had (which I rarely find), what is the value you give the most, for example, what is the trait of grand-master clays?

Peace.
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby chrl42 » Feb 4th, '14, 01:26

Adding to that, good reproductions are stories before the ROC, from what I know, good reproduction doesn't really exist in 8~90s.

Exception is Zhuni, Zhuni masters didn't have a back-up as Factory-1 masters, they were independent potters. During 90s they replicated Qing collections, but their qualities were the same as now (became famous) and they were strictly hand-made. Most of them were handed to Taiwan.
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby Teaism » Feb 4th, '14, 02:02

Those reproduction are available in where I live in the 90s and I bought them cheap. A lot of them are made for Taiwan market at the heyday of Yixing pot appreciation. It was my personal purchase and experience in the 90s and now I move on and don't spend time on them. Some already neatly packed in the boxes. I have shown some of them to some expert and some them told me it could be real. Anyway, I just don't bother with those noises and just to enjoy tea peacefully. Academic studies and curiosities is just a extra luxury which I can afford to sideline. I have a big network of collectors and teapot traders friends who are very active since the 70s and a lot of these findings and experiences are not documented. Some of them can even tell me which teapot design was approved by who and when. These are real history and often not documented.

Personally to me, tea is more important. Yixing teapot is way overhyped and I appreciate and admire some artist work like shyrabbit, petr novak, greenwood studio and some Japanese wares more nowadays. They pursue art relentlessly and quietly and their works speak for themselves. I also have a good collection of Jiang Yu, Chai Xiao Fang and Jiang Yu Thing stuff but the somehow my preference has shifted.

However, I do admire your dedication and knowledge on Yixing pot and respect you in that field. Eventually, I know both of us enjoy these as much in a different perspective. That is what all of us in this forum have in common.

Cheers and have a great day!
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby 茶藝-TeaArt08 » Feb 4th, '14, 04:32

Personally to me, tea is more important. Yixing teapot is way overhyped and I appreciate and admire some artist work like shyrabbit, petr novak, greenwood studio and some Japanese wares more nowadays. They pursue art relentlessly and quietly and their works speak for themselves.


+1 Very well said!! :D
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby chrl42 » Feb 4th, '14, 18:29

茶藝-TeaArt08 wrote:
Personally to me, tea is more important. Yixing teapot is way overhyped and I appreciate and admire some artist work like shyrabbit, petr novak, greenwood studio and some Japanese wares more nowadays. They pursue art relentlessly and quietly and their works speak for themselves.


+1 Very well said!! :D

Like how many northern Chinese tea drinkers say 'Puerh is over-hyped' but very few of them actually have drunk, or enjoy antique Puerh...there is a gap between northern and southern culture as to tea drinking although northerners won't be likely to admit...like any of us :) (not to include teaism since he's in SE asia and has a long experience of tea drinking :) )
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby kyarazen » Feb 4th, '14, 22:04

warning : long image!

http://i.imgur.com/aTdBc8e.jpg (higher res)

these are a few items that have been heavily debated and fought over just in a matter of a few days 8) 8)

Image
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby TIM » Feb 5th, '14, 16:57

kyarazen wrote:warning : long image!

http://i.imgur.com/aTdBc8e.jpg (higher res)

these are a few items that have been heavily debated and fought over just in a matter of a few days 8) 8)

Image


I guess this one is one of the style in your link kyarazen?
Image

This one is also very much heavily copied:
Image
Image
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby kyarazen » Feb 5th, '14, 21:56

very heavily copied 8) 8)

Image

Image
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby bagua7 » Feb 6th, '14, 19:24

kyarazen wrote:Image


So much that even inspires cars:

Image

:lol:
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby chrl42 » Feb 6th, '14, 21:34

Masters have own styles, Gu Jing-zhou had a style on every each spout, and he left a mark inside the lid, it's not easy to hand-make to imitate their own styles but it's possible for marks and known habits.

Masters used specific clays for specific pots, many of their clays are not possible to imitate....I once saw Lv Yao-chen pot which imitated his favorite Long Shan Ming Sha clay, at looking it seemed similar, but touching and feeling the difference was huge. His very clay are only shared with his loving son Lv Jun-jie. The seal was exact same and mould-used. But if one takes a picture of that pot online, I'm sure it'd pass on many so-called experts out there. But the fakes will be fakes after using and period.


My friend had a Chen Guo-liang imitation, B-rated imitation. One day we strolled in Maliandao, and showed it to Yixing sellers there, guess what, it passed it! But, funny thing is, it didn't pass on highly experienced experts..some expert showed a disgrace....I blushed. :oops:

The imitator imitated Chen's writing style, and used good clay, Di Cao Qing. So the imitator might have not imagined how his pot had been treated with disrepects. But it was about artistc level, fooled sellers checked Chen's habits, writing style and luxurious box we carried. But the pot was just losing class and power, and not many people can authenticate the quality of clay.

Imitators can imitate so-called seals or habits...but last stage is artistic level and clay. It's not easy....looks like someone's swimming in distrust and frustration.....let them lose their time :?
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby kyarazen » Feb 7th, '14, 02:04

bagua7 wrote:
kyarazen wrote:Image


So much that even inspires cars:

Image

:lol:


wonder how many of those cars a real shang xin qiao can buy :lol:
its all a nice cycle, after all in this time people are replicating Gu's work, and in Gu's time (early days), he was replicating the works of predecessing masters.

gu was fanatical about all the details and artistry of antique pots, from which he learned a lot about techniques, styles, to be able to develop his own style :lol:
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby theredbaron » Feb 9th, '14, 00:18

kyarazen wrote:the homologue of yixing collection in thailand is the collecting of buddhist paraphernalia, or like i would say disdainfully.. little clay tablets of images etc. i've ceased collecting thai buddhist paraphernalia for a very long time already although the itch comes back sometimes..

if you head to thaprachan, it can be possible to buy somdej wat rakangs by somdej toh by the kilograms! comes in a bucket soaked in a certain mixture to give the aged patina. you can buy phra-ayuthaya style buddhas in all sorts of sizes, some even with nicely made patinas. for thai amulets it has already reached the point where the fake and the real cannot be easily distinguished. there's now laser scanning and mold creation technologies, all the markings that the magazines and books talk about are now faithfully introduced in all the replica amulets. every year there are also countless competitions across thailand where phraks are verified, and given a certificate if they win etc. soon after it was possible to purchase professionally made certificates with the right "signatures" and water marks.

i'm just drawing a parallel to yixing wares. if the thais can do excellent forges of clay tablets, the chinese can be very advanced with their antiques. whether the point of forging antique yixing or antique porcelain has reached the point where the real/fake cannot be easily distinguished... its perhaps time for the hobbyists to train themselves, and to realize in time to come :(




Thai amulets fortunately are a living and constantly evolving culture. While old amulets are faked massively and so well to a point that even experts cannot distinguish fakes from real ones in many cases, new amulets are issued constantly by both temples, monks and lay acharn.
Many collectors look with disdain at new amulets, especially the for me most interesting ones - the "mahasanae", and the more modern style of painted amulets (started about 10 years ago by Kruba Krisana), i personally find them particularly interesting.
But in this field it is also important to point out the difference between western style collecting - which is mostly on artistic merit, and Thai (and other Asian) style of collecting - where price and value mostly derives from reputation of the monk, acharn and magic propensities of the particular amulets. Prices can be quite astonishing - 100 000's of US dollars or more for tiny amulets who have perceived strong protective forces.

The only old amulets i have were given to me. What i like to collect (in the western style) are new amulets, especially "mahasanae" - which can be quite mind blowing. At times very strong sexual depictions, incorporation of human bone, roots of both making and ritual are in pre-buddhist times, and closely related to Tantrism, with similarities even to left handed Tantrism.

sorry to digress... ;)
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby Have Some Tea » Feb 12th, '14, 09:29

Antique Yixing Teapot 19th CE x1.jpg
Antique Yixing Teapot 19th CE x1.jpg (58.75 KiB) Viewed 256 times
Antique Yixing Teapot 19th CE x2.jpg
Antique Yixing Teapot 19th CE x2.jpg (65.52 KiB) Viewed 256 times
Antique Yixing Teapot 19th CE x8.jpg
Antique Yixing Teapot 19th CE x8.jpg (55.39 KiB) Viewed 256 times

19th CE Yixing pot history:
Currently 3 generations in the family as an antique on display.
Acquired in China between 1920 and 1930 by a relative who was a high ranking officer in the Royal Dutch Navy.

It's in perfect condition with some signs of use and no chips or cracks.
The patina on the inside is rich and shows signs of old use and many Zen (Chan) tea moments.

Clay: Zisha
Fired: High
Manufactured: probably 19th century
Acquired: between 1920 and 1930
Use: Not in use since acquired

I see that some of you are experts on this matter. I would be very interested in the manufacturing date/era and the maker, if you can decipher the name stamp... And as a tea connoisseur and Zen practitioner I would be grateful if you can unravel the mystery of the calligraphy on the side.
Last edited by Have Some Tea on Feb 13th, '14, 05:14, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby bagua7 » Feb 12th, '14, 18:07

Nice! It is lovely owning a really old piece. The Qi of that post must be intense. Congratulations. :D

How big is it? I mean, capacity.

Not used yet??!!

The monkey is reaching
For the moon in the water.
Until death overtakes him
He'll never give up.
If he'd let go the branch and
Disappear in the deep pool,
The whole world would shine
With dazzling pureness.


I certainly can do that...so are you willing to sell me your pot? :mrgreen: :lol:
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