TeaChat

kyarazen wrote:

Have Some Tea wrote:
Btw how polite of you to ask permission for re-posting the photo's on other sites to continue the quest for artist and age. Off course you have permission! If I judge the last posts correctly I think that besides me there are a couple of other members who are interested in her history.

just posted for inquiry and in a few minutes there's some info

蒋永西 (石生), 70s cultural revolution period.
you can find examples of his work here, carved by himself.
http://blog.cntv.cn/11369242-3976667.html

Just did some googling - nobody thinks 蒋永西 lived past around 1960s, so what makes you say this pot is from the 70s?

Seems like our 1920s/30s proposition is much more likely than the 70s or 80s one.

http://auction.artxun.com/pic-249408227-0.html

Compare the signature on the bottom left with the one on Have some tea's - very similar. The writing style for the main text is different but that's deliberate (different types of calligraphy).

MarshalN wrote: Just did some googling - nobody thinks 蒋永西 lived past around 1960s, so what makes you say this pot is from the 70s?

Seems like our 1920s/30s proposition is much more likely than the 70s or 80s one.

well, thats because you based it on only 1 piece of evidence, the name that was carved on the pot, which may or may not indicate that this person did the carving. at least 3 other people signed off as 石生, with 蒋永西 being the original/first.

the phrase is interestingly uncommon too, 浮雲一朵碧可油, it would be interesting to find out the era where such phrases would be used on pots as well

there is a possibility that this pot is a combination/culmination of the essence of different eras making it a masterpiece in its own right

Are you sure. It's highly rare....

TIM wrote:Are you sure. It's highly rare....

i'm just passing on information, its up to people to rationalize and infer.
its not of my interest to procure it, nor appraise it, but if you're interested in this pot i suppose that if you make a nice offer to Have Some Tea, in the range of the 1920s-30s pot values, you might get lucky!

kyarazen wrote:

MarshalN wrote: Just did some googling - nobody thinks 蒋永西 lived past around 1960s, so what makes you say this pot is from the 70s?

Seems like our 1920s/30s proposition is much more likely than the 70s or 80s one.

well, thats because you based it on only 1 piece of evidence, the name that was carved on the pot, which may or may not indicate that this person did the carving. at least 3 other people signed off as 石生, with 蒋永西 being the original/first.

the phrase is interestingly uncommon too, 浮雲一朵碧可油, it would be interesting to find out the era where such phrases would be used on pots as well

there is a possibility that this pot is a combination/culmination of the essence of different eras making it a masterpiece in its own right

Except you completely discount the story that the owner of the pot told. You're basically assuming that his family's making it up.

The level of craft and the calligraphy suggest this is a pre-CR pot, or a much later reproduction. The OP has no real reason to lie about this.

Again, link please to where you asked, since it seems like you asked online. We can read Chinese just fine.

I think the communication is getting a little twisted here. In my first reply, I said I thought the pot looked like an ROC product, but then I noticed the ball filter which raised the question if ball filters were used in the ROC. I thought not but allowed the question to be answered by someone who might know differently. I don't think anyone is saying that the family intentionally miscommunicated the provenance. But, sometimes stories change as they pass from one set of lips to another's ears, and so on.

well, i repeat, that i'm passing on information since i had asked for the owner's permission before contacting several groups of collectors in private on their opinions based on these images, from which i provided a brief summary on the information that different people had given.

CR is not devoid of decent workmanship particularly on big persimmons.
you can see some nice examples of workmanship and decent calligraphy here at

http://www.dyee.org/bbs/thread-510100-1-1.html
http://www.dyee.org/bbs/forum.php?mod=v ... tid=473807
http://www.dyee.org/bbs/forum.php?mod=v ... tid=452631
http://www.dyee.org/bbs/forum.php?mod=v ... tid=409577
http://bbs.artron.net/thread-3382192-1-1.html

Additional reference to compare pre CR and CR 柿子。

http://www.gucn.com/Service_CurioSearch ... oPlaceId=2

wert wrote:Additional reference to compare pre CR and CR 柿子。

http://www.gucn.com/Service_CurioSearch ... oPlaceId=2

None of them looks ROC and very few of them might be CR..

gucn.com is not a great source to look for genuine Yixings, they might have some nice Jingdezhens though

chrl42 wrote:

wert wrote:Additional reference to compare pre CR and CR 柿子。

http://www.gucn.com/Service_CurioSearch ... oPlaceId=2

None of them looks ROC and very few of them might be CR..

gucn.com is not a great source to look for genuine Yixings, they might have some nice Jingdezhens though

Can you show us any ROC pot with a ball filter? I need proof that they exist.

kyarazen wrote:well, i repeat, that i'm passing on information since i had asked for the owner's permission before contacting several groups of collectors in private on their opinions based on these images, from which i provided a brief summary on the information that different people had given.

CR is not devoid of decent workmanship particularly on big persimmons.
you can see some nice examples of workmanship and decent calligraphy here at

http://www.dyee.org/bbs/thread-510100-1-1.html
http://www.dyee.org/bbs/forum.php?mod=v ... tid=473807
http://www.dyee.org/bbs/forum.php?mod=v ... tid=452631
http://www.dyee.org/bbs/forum.php?mod=v ... tid=409577
http://bbs.artron.net/thread-3382192-1-1.html

You really think these are on par with the OP's pot?

The second one (473807) for example, looks like someone slit open the persimmon. Maker didn't even bother to make the depression.

The writing on the first one and the artron one look like five year old attempts.

Sorry, the level of detail are just not there.

Marshalln, can you come up with an example of an ROC pot with a ball filter?

MarshalN wrote:

Drax wrote:The writing styles are similar, but I would say that they were done by different people.

In particular, I'm looking at the "left-right squiggles" -- on the master's pot, the left-right movement is very angular, or sharp. On your pot, the left-right movement is much more rounded (this comparison is a relative one).

But, that's just the writing style. I can't say anything about the pot itself.

And of course, I'm not anywhere near an expert in calligraphy, so take my estimation with a grain of salt!

They don't look like the same hands at all. Whoever wrote the words on the original pot (Have some tea's) is quite fine and practiced hand. He's comfortable with the writing and it's very smooth, with nice approximation for how the words would look if it were written in ink. The other pot (the oen not owned by Have some tea's) is not even close.

Hi guys,

I made some close-up cuts from the calligraphy on my pot.
May be the better view will help comparing and determining if it's by the master potter's hand or if it's from the hand of a calligraphy artist.

Being a Shodo (calligrapy) practitioner myself (see avatar) I agree with MarshalN on the smoothness of the carving on the debated subject. Holding the pot in my hands and studying the lines, it resembles the fine touch of a brushstroke. The curves and twists are done in that way, which is an art on paper and (I presume) hard to master in clay.

May be it's done by a pottery master who is also very skilled in the art of Shodo or may be it's done by someone else who knows....

Good good! Have Some Tea now has his definite answer now that you've helped him verify the fine details!! Its probably worth a pretty penny being the real calligraphy from the actual shi-sheng master! Congratulations

MarshalN wrote:

kyarazen wrote:well, i repeat, that i'm passing on information since i had asked for the owner's permission before contacting several groups of collectors in private on their opinions based on these images, from which i provided a brief summary on the information that different people had given.

CR is not devoid of decent workmanship particularly on big persimmons.
you can see some nice examples of workmanship and decent calligraphy here at

http://www.dyee.org/bbs/thread-510100-1-1.html
http://www.dyee.org/bbs/forum.php?mod=v ... tid=473807
http://www.dyee.org/bbs/forum.php?mod=v ... tid=452631
http://www.dyee.org/bbs/forum.php?mod=v ... tid=409577
http://bbs.artron.net/thread-3382192-1-1.html

You really think these are on par with the OP's pot?

The second one (473807) for example, looks like someone slit open the persimmon. Maker didn't even bother to make the depression.

The writing on the first one and the artron one look like five year old attempts.

Sorry, the level of detail are just not there.