Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!


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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby kyarazen » Jun 4th, '14, 11:12

read the "supposed" word that i had added of what i had written. and supposed 80年代末黑铁砂水平.

1) there is no mention of which factory by me nor tingjunkie on the pot, whilst you seem to make a lot of unrelated, factory comments. we're looking at it as though it is a teapot teapot.

2) if you know factory 1 stuff well, which year was it that they started experimenting with creating this type of partial heini/semi tianqing ni type and who were the people involved?

3) factory 1 shuipings, as of many other shuipings were just a dollar or two a piece when exported then. the recent transacted prices for 黑铁砂水平 of such style for 2012-2013 was around 450 rmb or so. 2014? not sure, not so much on resale on the regular pot forums as everyone had started to hoard since early 2014. i was giving a ball park figure, nothing is for sale here, nothing is transacting. tingjunkie had a lucky find.

4) stickers? there's the original box and white box that used to be quite abundant here, who wouldnt have seen the transition from the round green to the baipiao square v1 and then square v2 and then the round laser label?!...

5) i might need to disappoint you because this might not be simply manganese doped clay.. but its dark hue is contributed to by 黑铁砂, which is iron 2 oxide. various oxidation states can be obtained, if you use clay rich in iron 2 oxide and fire it (which is often a ratio between red iron 3 oxide and black iron 2), you can get a myriad of really dark, greyish black, purplish grey, or even brown dirty grey color depending on the air flow, temperature etc.

6) 70s, 80s up to 1992 at least, there is still 黑铁砂, there is round laser labelled one too. search 黑铁砂水平 in some favourite forums i.e. dyee, potsart, etc.

7) CR to 70s is known for their coarser clay particles, it is natural that 70s pots have a different texture to that of later periods.

chrl42 wrote:It doesn't look Factory-1 stuff.

The photo rather looks 70s Hei Tie Sha with its coarse texture, only it isn't.

Late-80s (and after) doesn't have Hei Tie Sha..but they do have that color of clay but texture not the same.

Factory-1 didn't use a reduction method..Factory-1 Heini is cobalt oxide+manganese oxide mixed....and why do u think it's late-80s (the genuine one doesn't cost over 100 bucks though)?


btw late-80s SPs come in a square sticker, have you seen that?
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby kyarazen » Jun 4th, '14, 13:10

Image

just some examples of different hues and types of "black" from '82 to early 90s, different factories.
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby chrl42 » Jun 4th, '14, 21:08

1. I merely commented on the date, saying you said it was 80s, but from what I know those imitations didn't come out in 80s. There was a few imitating the CR pots in the 80s, but the number is few.

2. Hei Tie Sha might be the earliest mixed type, I am seeing early-70s, but could be late-60s as well. Or it could be just a natural clay as well...no one knows a origin of Hei Tie Sha.

From what I know, a custom of mixing clay started since late-70s/early-80s..I mean in the Zini and Factory-1...and that's the common belief among people.

Tian Qing Ni is usually pointed on Mo Lv Ni. (F1)

3. That's wrong, Hei Tie Sha is only the clay used strictly during 70s~early-80s. Others aren't called Hei Tie Sha..but imitated ones.

Given that, any pot made of HTS should go over 3~4000 rmb in price.

4. Factory-1 only used 3 types of sticker. And green sticker is the only one that's called 'Zaoqi' period...later square and hologram stickers will be 3~4 times cheaper than green sticker. For level of making, quality of clay, number of quantity etc.

5. Since it doesn't seem Factory-1...whatever the clay it is I should care less. It's a first time hearing Factory-1 used iron-2-oxide.

6. Genuine Hei Tie Sha is black-brown hue, later ones don't follow that. You should understand the clays used between pre mid-80s and after mid-80s are not the same ones. HTS is no exception.

7. Earlier the period it is, it's more coarse, but that's due to sieve problem but the original ores are better. So even though they are produced to be coarse..in fact they are very tender and high-quality.

Truth is CR and pre-CR clays are still a lot tender and less coarse than many might have believed..because most of them are No.2 mine clays...No.1 mine clays are said to be coarse but the number is super few.
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby kyarazen » Jun 4th, '14, 22:48

1) you spent a long time commenting on factories and that is visible for all to see its irrelevance. you need to revisit some of your favourite forums and re-calibrate your timeline

2) hei tie sha is not describing the sandy nature of the pot like you think it to be, it is the simple chinese chemical name for iron 2 oxide. you can call up any chemical factory and place an order for it, comes in sacks of 25kg wholesale

tianqing does not point to mo lv ni. citing from one of your recommended clay reference books which i assume you should have devoured and read by now :

Image

Image

since you seem to like "old" pots and should also have been in close contact with literature from that time; citing from ming dynasty :
周高起论天青泥(原文):
  天青泥,出蠡墅,陶之变黯肝色。又其夹支。有梨皮泥,陶显梨冻色;淡红泥,陶现松花色;浅黄泥,陶现豆碧色,密口泥,陶现轻赭色;梨皮和白砂,陶现淡墨色。山灵腠络,陶冶变化,尚露种种光怪云。
  解语注释:
  蠡墅:在宜兴城南部,以范蠡所居故名。
  夹支:指夹脉。
  梨冻色:透亮的淡褐色。
  松花:淡黄色。
  豆碧色:青豆色。
  密口泥:(“口”字诸本皆同)到《阳羡名陶录》也作“密口泥”。
  轻赭色:浅咖啡色。
  淡墨色:浅灰黑色。
  腠络:腠,皮下之间的空隙叫腠;络,人体的脉络。
  光怪:光怪陆离之意。
  白话理解注释:
  天青泥出产于蠡墅,如果加以陶炼,就会变成黯猪肝色
  在这个地方的支脉夹层,还有梨皮泥,加以陶炼可出现冻梨色;
  淡红泥,加以陶炼,就会出现松花色;
  浅黄泥,加以陶炼,就会出现豆碧色;
  密口泥,即以陶炼,就会出现轻赭色;
  梨皮和白砂,加以陶炼,就会出现淡墨色

but possibility that maybe the literature is less accurate/incorrect whilst you are right is there.

3. heitiesha refers to iron 3 oxides... below 1.3% content fires up to greyish.. but i know you dont like/believe in chemistry so its ok.

4) sticker is not the deciding factor on price. the deciding factor is still the clay, maker, design. it is like buying pu-erh tea because of the label. it is possible to buy stickers from certain sources if they know you well enough ;)

5) well how well do you know the factories? local merchants in this region used to do big business with factory 1, and the later factories. many of the pots in taiwan are re-routed from this region in the 80s-90s when relations were not so good. anyway my apologies for having assumed you were into clay, and instead that the factory is a lot more important in your perspective.

6) the clay is still quite similar from specimens studied from early 80s to early 90s. the variation you see on the market is because of several alternative ways to create the "black", even without doping/mixing.

Image

over firing
Image

reduction fired
Image

7) had a friend whom place order with factory 1 in end 60s, early 70s for 1000 vessels, several large pots, plates, cups which i had the fortune to obtain some in its original grass packaging. coarseness and fineness is still due to processing, not particularly the mine.

chrl42 wrote:1. I merely commented on the date, saying you said it was 80s, but from what I know those imitations didn't come out in 80s. There was a few imitating the CR pots in the 80s, but the number is few.

2. Hei Tie Sha might be the earliest mixed type, I am seeing early-70s, but could be late-60s as well. Or it could be just a natural clay as well...no one knows a origin of Hei Tie Sha.

From what I know, a custom of mixing clay started since late-70s/early-80s..I mean in the Zini and Factory-1...and that's the common belief among people.

Tian Qing Ni is usually pointed on Mo Lv Ni. (F1)

3. That's wrong, Hei Tie Sha is only the clay used strictly during 70s~early-80s. Others aren't called Hei Tie Sha..but imitated ones.

Given that, any pot made of HTS should go over 3~4000 rmb in price.

4. Factory-1 only used 3 types of sticker. And green sticker is the only one that's called 'Zaoqi' period...later square and hologram stickers will be 3~4 times cheaper than green sticker. For level of making, quality of clay, number of quantity etc.

5. Since it doesn't seem Factory-1...whatever the clay it is I should care less. It's a first time hearing Factory-1 used iron-2-oxide.

6. Genuine Hei Tie Sha is black-brown hue, later ones don't follow that. You should understand the clays used between pre mid-80s and after mid-80s are not the same ones. HTS is no exception.

7. Earlier the period it is, it's more coarse, but that's due to sieve problem but the original ores are better. So even though they are produced to be coarse..in fact they are very tender and high-quality.

Truth is CR and pre-CR clays are still a lot tender and less coarse than many might have believed..because most of them are No.2 mine clays...No.1 mine clays are said to be coarse but the number is super few.
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby chrl42 » Jun 4th, '14, 23:17

kyarazen wrote:2) hei tie sha is not describing the sandy nature of the pot like you think it to be, it is the simple chinese chemical name for iron 2 oxide. you can call up any chemical factory and place an order for it, comes in sacks of 25kg wholesale
Naming is up to anyone. I remember that book's Hei Tie Sha calls to Taixi's, right? Read the book again, they started to mine Taixi place since 90's or so. So different from Factory-1.

kyarazen wrote:tianqing does not point to mo lv ni. citing from one of your recommended clay reference books which i assume you should have devoured and read by now :
What world do you live in? Jia Zi Ni (early-80s) clay is known to made in order to recarnicate 'Tian Qing Ni'....care to wonder why I didn't call Jia Zi Ni a Tian Qing Ni? lol

Terms I use is the terms used among the collectors or in the market. Mind you Factory-1 itself never had a list of names of clays. They started to just call it cos Mo Lv Ni has a color of a blue sky. Why do you keep focusing on the names? It's useless. Stick to the actual topic (if you can grasp)


kyarazen wrote:4) sticker is not the deciding factor on price. the deciding factor is still the clay, maker, design. it is like buying pu-erh tea because of the label. it is possible to buy stickers from certain sources if they know you well enough ;)
you obviously don't know anything about Factory-1.


kyarazen wrote:6) the clay is still quite similar from specimens studied from early 80s to early 90s. the variation you see on the market is because of several alternative ways to create the "black", even without doping/mixing.
I don't wanna talk about how they make Yixing clay this time. Just bring me some info about Factory-1 making please.


kyarazen wrote:7) had a friend whom place order with factory 1 in end 60s, early 70s for 1000 vessels, several large pots, plates, cups which i had the fortune to obtain some in its original grass packaging. coarseness and fineness is still due to processing, not particularly the mine.
Important is what kind of friend they were. Now read the Zhu Ze-wei book again. They illustrate the colors, coarseness, tenderness of the clays, given the same environment of firing or a sieve.
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby kyarazen » Jun 5th, '14, 02:23

chrl42 wrote:Naming is up to anyone. I remember that book's Hei Tie Sha calls to Taixi's, right? Read the book again, they started to mine Taixi place since 90's or so. So different from Factory-1.


it all started with your irrelevant participation, we were all simply calling it hei-ni amongst ourselves. the book doesnt write anything on "黑" but simply 铁砂 (iron sand) if you read again.

chrl42 wrote:What world do you live in? Jia Zi Ni (early-80s) clay is known to made in order to recarnicate 'Tian Qing Ni'....care to wonder why I didn't call Jia Zi Ni a Tian Qing Ni? lol


well of course i dont stay near maliandao, neither do i wish to stay near panjiayuan to absorb their influences, plus there isnt a need to associate myself with any of these places. 甲紫泥天青泥能傻傻分不清?!

chrl42 wrote:Terms I use is the terms used among the collectors or in the market. Mind you Factory-1 itself never had a list of names of clays. They started to just call it cos Mo Lv Ni has a color of a blue sky. Why do you keep focusing on the names? It's useless. Stick to the actual topic (if you can grasp)


i think you were the one grasping instead. 墨绿 mo lv ni is ink (blue/green) clay, 天青 tian qing ni is sky (blue/green) clay. do not mis-inform the western community with the translation, thanks.

example of usage of hei tie sha as common term on the collector/market: http://www.dyee.org/bbs/thread-414633-1-1.html
http://www.dyee.org/bbs/thread-550480-1-8.html

chrl42 wrote:you obviously don't know anything about Factory-1.

you can choose to be non civil and hurl insults, its as easy for anyone to also tell you that you know nothing about yixing and clays, not to even talk about qing stuff.


kyarazen wrote: I don't wanna talk about how they make Yixing clay this time. Just bring me some info about Factory-1 making please.

you should have more than sufficient information from your "sources" and your refusal to be discussive, and attempts at exerting yourself as the YX authority here, there's no way and no need for any information from anyone else.

kyarazen wrote:Important is what kind of friend they were. Now read the Zhu Ze-wei book again. They illustrate the colors, coarseness, tenderness of the clays, given the same environment of firing or a sieve.


well, good, trustable, friends that are easily twice your age, involved with the chamber of commerce, placing orders to help out CR china, personally kept for the last 40 years.

Image

i've no interest to correspond with you actually, since it had pretty much been always non-constructive and non-discussive all the time. its perhaps time to stop corresponding.

have a good day and go make your self some tea in your qing pots.
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby the_economist » Jun 5th, '14, 02:26

That is an amazing picture. Was that how they used to ship pots back in the day? Bundled in grass?
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby MarshalN » Jun 5th, '14, 05:34

The people in Beijing who know anything about tea and teaware have long left Maliandao to hang out in private clubs and boutique shops elsewhere in the city.
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby dilettante » Jun 5th, '14, 13:38

On a different topic, does anyone knows the clay and period of this teapot? I bot this teapot two years ago when i was new to yixing teapots, probably another dud ?
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby dilettante » Jun 5th, '14, 14:31

sorry, here's the pic.
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby bonescwa » Jun 5th, '14, 15:54

dilettante wrote:On a different topic, does anyone knows the clay and period of this teapot? I bot this teapot two years ago when i was new to yixing teapots, probably another dud ?

It looks like an unusual shape for all the typical duds. Like why make something that isn't as familiar and in demand as shui ping, xi shi, fang gu, etc if you just want to move volume. That being said, I am not knowledgeable about yixing at all and can't comment on the clay, structure, appearance, etc. Does it make good tea for you?
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby MarshalN » Jun 5th, '14, 20:41

dilettante wrote:sorry, here's the pic.


Did you buy this in Taiwan?
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby dilettante » Jun 5th, '14, 21:13

I bought this one from Malaysia. It's a small one , 8 cm x 6 cm, so I don't really use it, it's more of a display piece. U think it's another Taiwanese dud?
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby dilettante » Jun 5th, '14, 21:36

Here's the maker's seal if it helps to identify
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby MarshalN » Jun 6th, '14, 05:05

dilettante wrote:Here's the maker's seal if it helps to identify


Strongly reminds me of what we normally call "night market pot"
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