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Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

by wyardley » Oct 30th, '13, 23:01

TIM wrote: It's a duck spout. Not a shiuping or a pigeon beak.
As I understands. You a calling a elephant a rino?
If you wanna educated people, don't you think you need to get your knowledge right? I might be worry, so I'm learning too, or are you game for that? The one on the pic is for China market? Not Hong Kong which might have numbers for stamp or Taiwanese market in the 80s to 90s, which could have 4 characters stamps. But again I'm trying to learn from Chris version, since he is on Beijing.

What's your understanding of it, besides googling it Will? Pls do share.
I didn't say I wanted to educate people.

I've always seem that style of pot referred to as gezui on auction sites, teapot forums, etc., and never seem it referred to as anything else. Looks more like a pigeon / dove than a duck to me anyway. I'm not saying that it may not have other names, but I think it's a common enough usage that it's not incorrect. As with anything in tea, there could be some variations in what's called what where.

I don't see how the market the pot is for or the seal matters in terms of what the shape is called.

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Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

by TIM » Oct 30th, '13, 23:06

wyardley wrote:
TIM wrote: It's a duck spout. Not a shiuping or a pigeon beak.
As I understands. You a calling a elephant a rino?
If you wanna educated people, don't you think you need to get your knowledge right? I might be worry, so I'm learning too, or are you game for that? The one on the pic is for China market? Not Hong Kong which might have numbers for stamp or Taiwanese market in the 80s to 90s, which could have 4 characters stamps. But again I'm trying to learn from Chris version, since he is on Beijing.

What's your understanding of it, besides googling it Will? Pls do share.
I didn't say I wanted to educate people.

I've always seem that style of pot referred to as gezui on auction sites, teapot forums, etc., and never seem it referred to as anything else. Looks more like a pigeon / dove than a duck to me anyway. I'm not saying that it may not have other names, but I think it's a common enough usage that it's not incorrect. As with anything in tea, there could be some variations in what's called what where.

I don't see how the market the pot is for or the seal matters in terms of what the shape is called.
So the seal to you is more important then the shape?

ps. People conversations here in the forum are educating people, no? There is responsibility and consequences here when we talk about things, the newbies will soak them up and educated the next generation.

If we dont care about that, then we will be smashing pots to the floor because the pot laminate energy which have too much fire or in a negative realm.

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Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

by wyardley » Oct 30th, '13, 23:23

I don't quite understand what you're saying; I didn't say or imply anything about the seal, nor anything about which is most important. I was just chiming in about the shape.

I've always heard that shape refered to as gezui.

I totally agree that there's lot of bad information on the Internet, and that searching for something on Google is not the best way to get information, and again, that's not where I got the idea that that's what this pot is called. But the fact that that term brings up hundreds of pages of images of that shape of teapot (vs. very few for 鸭嘴壶) suggests to me that it is, in fact, a pretty common usage. That doesn't mean it's the only correct term for the pot, but I don't see how you are so sure that it's incorrect, just because it's not the term you use for it.

In any event, it's very common usage on teapot forums and auction sites, e.g.,
http://forum.potsart.com/forum.php?mod= ... &tid=61881
http://forum.potsart.com/forum.php?mod= ... &tid=60108
http://tw.search.bid.yahoo.com/search/a ... id=0&clv=0
This translation of a post from bbs.classicpuer.com.cn http://teadrunk.org/post/115/#p115
etc.

I'm happy to be educated if you want to point me to some resources on why this term is incorrect. I've got lots of books on teapots, but none that talk about pots from this era, so I don't have any books to quote from / scan directly.

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Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

by wyardley » Oct 30th, '13, 23:27

chrl42 wrote:
wyardley wrote:
Easier than that. If everything is uncertain and abstract, then there would be no one dares to publish books or sell old pots.
http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2013/china-art-fraud/
cannot be loaded, nytimes often doesn't work in China.
I think maybe you're taking my comment the wrong way. Anyway, the article is just about the prevalence of forgeries even at pretty high levels in Chinese art / porcelain. There's a lot of demand for expensive items (and a lot of people with more money than expertise at authenticating teapots).

So, I don't think the fact that there are vendors / auction houses who sell old pots and people who buy them means that there aren't an awful lot of fakes out there being sold as authentic.

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Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

by TIM » Oct 30th, '13, 23:35

wyardley wrote:I don't quite understand what you're saying; I didn't say or imply anything about the seal, nor anything about which is most important. I was just chiming in about the shape.

I've always heard that shape refered to as gezui.

I totally agree that there's lot of bad information on the Internet, and that searching for something on Google is not the best way to get information, and again, that's not where I got the idea that that's what this pot is called. But the fact that that term brings up hundreds of pages of images of that shape of teapot (vs. very few for 鸭嘴壶) suggests to me that it is, in fact, a pretty common usage. That doesn't mean it's the only correct term for the pot, but I don't see how you are so sure that it's incorrect, just because it's not the term you use for it.

In any event, it's very common usage on teapot forums and auction sites, e.g.,
http://forum.potsart.com/forum.php?mod= ... &tid=61881
http://forum.potsart.com/forum.php?mod= ... &tid=60108
http://tw.search.bid.yahoo.com/search/a ... id=0&clv=0
This translation of a post from bbs.classicpuer.com.cn http://teadrunk.org/post/115/#p115
etc.

I'm happy to be educated if you want to point me to some resources on why this term is incorrect. I've got lots of books on teapots, but none that talk about pots from this era, so I don't have any books to quote from / scan directly.
Do you see a different between these 2 from your search links?

http://forum.potsart.com/forum.php?mod= ... &tid=61881

http://tw.page.bid.yahoo.com/tw/auction ... bN8;_ylv=3

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Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

by chrl42 » Oct 30th, '13, 23:47

wyardley wrote:
chrl42 wrote:
wyardley wrote:
Easier than that. If everything is uncertain and abstract, then there would be no one dares to publish books or sell old pots.
http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2013/china-art-fraud/
cannot be loaded, nytimes often doesn't work in China.
I think maybe you're taking my comment the wrong way. Anyway, the article is just about the prevalence of forgeries even at pretty high levels in Chinese art / porcelain. There's a lot of demand for expensive items (and a lot of people with more money than expertise at authenticating teapots).

So, I don't think the fact that there are vendors / auction houses who sell old pots and people who buy them means that there aren't an awful lot of fakes out there being sold as authentic.
Buddy...I live in China....

What I am doing here is basically facing 99% fakes...and try to find a way to survive out of them.

We have a Yixing collector seminar Beijing branch annually, except for that, most of Yixing collectors DO NOT understand Yixing teapot of older period. Master Yixing teapot price skyrocketted, antique Yixing price not so much, profound reason is too many don't understand the older teapots..they just gave up studying them.

Very few old teapot collectors have sources here and out, to SE asia to Japan, to museums or even unearthen products....you go to auctions...even auctions deal fakes goods or quality not high. The most trustful ones are Jia-de and Bao-li or some in HK and Taipei. Fakes stuffs don't flow into there cos they are authenticated by world's greatest experts.

You don't have to inform me about fakes & real of Yixings..here in China, the possibility of being exposed to that is much high and what newspapers talking about that things like that daily. Peace.

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Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

by TIM » Oct 31st, '13, 00:00

chrl42 wrote:
wyardley wrote:
chrl42 wrote:
wyardley wrote:
Easier than that. If everything is uncertain and abstract, then there would be no one dares to publish books or sell old pots.
http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2013/china-art-fraud/
cannot be loaded, nytimes often doesn't work in China.
I think maybe you're taking my comment the wrong way. Anyway, the article is just about the prevalence of forgeries even at pretty high levels in Chinese art / porcelain. There's a lot of demand for expensive items (and a lot of people with more money than expertise at authenticating teapots).

So, I don't think the fact that there are vendors / auction houses who sell old pots and people who buy them means that there aren't an awful lot of fakes out there being sold as authentic.
Buddy...I live in China....

What I am doing here is basically facing 99% fakes...and try to find a way to survive out of them.

We have a Yixing collector seminar Beijing branch annually, except for that, most of Yixing collectors DO NOT understand Yixing teapot of older period. Master Yixing teapot price skyrocketted, antique Yixing price not so much, profound reason is too many don't understand the older teapots..they just gave up studying them.

Very few old teapot collectors have sources here and out, to SE asia to Japan, to museums or even unearthen products....you go to auctions...even auctions deal fakes goods or quality not high. The most trustful ones are Jia-de and Bao-li or some in HK and Taipei. Fakes stuffs don't flow into there cos they are authenticated by world's greatest experts.

You don't have to inform me about fakes & real of Yixings..here in China, the possibility of being exposed to that is much high and what newspapers talking about that things like that daily. Peace.
Hey buddy, you are talking to a native Hong Kong collector. So I am new to the Northern China languages. Just curious you do speak and read Chinese, right?

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Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

by wyardley » Oct 31st, '13, 00:01

chrl42 wrote:The most trustful ones are Jia-de and Bao-li or some in HK and Taipei. Fakes stuffs don't flow into there cos they are authenticated by world's greatest experts.

You don't have to inform me about fakes & real of Yixings..here in China, the possibility of being exposed to that is much high and what newspapers talking about that things like that daily. Peace.
Exactly. I'm not saying you're deluded in that respect at all, or that that's what you meant. I just think your earlier post may have given some people the idea that just because items are getting sold by reputable vendors or on reputable sites that they're never fake or easily authenticated.

Knowing about seals can certainly rule out certain possibilities (and I don't claim to have great knowledge about authenticating pots based on their mark), but I think the point that people are making is that a plausible seal still doesn't prove much.
Last edited by wyardley on Oct 31st, '13, 00:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

by wyardley » Oct 31st, '13, 00:02

TIM wrote: Do you see a different between these 2 from your search links?

http://forum.potsart.com/forum.php?mod= ... &tid=61881

http://tw.page.bid.yahoo.com/tw/auction ... bN8;_ylv=3
One has the spout flat with the lid, the other has it cut on a bias.
As with shuiping, I see the term used to describe pots that have both types of spout.
Last edited by wyardley on Oct 31st, '13, 00:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

by TIM » Oct 31st, '13, 00:04

wyardley wrote:
TIM wrote: Do you see a different between these 2 from your search links?

http://forum.potsart.com/forum.php?mod= ... &tid=61881

http://tw.page.bid.yahoo.com/tw/auction ... bN8;_ylv=3
One has the spout flat with the lid, the other has it cut on a bias.
so there are differences?

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Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

by wyardley » Oct 31st, '13, 00:07

TIM wrote: so there are differences?
Absolutely.

I don't think that's proof that the name doesn't apply to both pots, though.

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Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

by chrl42 » Oct 31st, '13, 00:16

wyardley wrote:
chrl42 wrote:The most trustful ones are Jia-de and Bao-li or some in HK and Taipei. Fakes stuffs don't flow into there cos they are authenticated by world's greatest experts.

You don't have to inform me about fakes & real of Yixings..here in China, the possibility of being exposed to that is much high and what newspapers talking about that things like that daily. Peace.
Exactly. I'm not saying you're deluded in that respect at all, or that that's what you meant. I just think your earlier post may have given some people the idea that just because items are getting sold by reputable vendors or on reputable sites that they're never fake or easily authenticated.

Knowing about seals can certainly rule out certain possibilities (and I don't claim to have great knowledge about authenticating pots based on their mark), but I think the point that people are making is that a plausible seal still doesn't prove much.
It's not like I don't understand your point.

But you don't seem to understand my point though, cos I didn't say the seal test work for 99% of 6-seal pots..you just don't seem to have an idea of what I was saying...my point is most of time the seal test for 6-letter work..and how other based facts do you have to oppose my (and other collectors) idea which is very known facts.


Let's take other side, do you believe oldpot experts don't see carving (Qing dynasty) or seals (F1) when they examine the pots, or take less consideration?
Last edited by chrl42 on Oct 31st, '13, 00:36, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

by chrl42 » Oct 31st, '13, 00:18

TIM wrote:
chrl42 wrote:
wyardley wrote:
chrl42 wrote:
wyardley wrote:
Easier than that. If everything is uncertain and abstract, then there would be no one dares to publish books or sell old pots.
http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2013/china-art-fraud/
cannot be loaded, nytimes often doesn't work in China.
I think maybe you're taking my comment the wrong way. Anyway, the article is just about the prevalence of forgeries even at pretty high levels in Chinese art / porcelain. There's a lot of demand for expensive items (and a lot of people with more money than expertise at authenticating teapots).

So, I don't think the fact that there are vendors / auction houses who sell old pots and people who buy them means that there aren't an awful lot of fakes out there being sold as authentic.
Buddy...I live in China....

What I am doing here is basically facing 99% fakes...and try to find a way to survive out of them.

We have a Yixing collector seminar Beijing branch annually, except for that, most of Yixing collectors DO NOT understand Yixing teapot of older period. Master Yixing teapot price skyrocketted, antique Yixing price not so much, profound reason is too many don't understand the older teapots..they just gave up studying them.

Very few old teapot collectors have sources here and out, to SE asia to Japan, to museums or even unearthen products....you go to auctions...even auctions deal fakes goods or quality not high. The most trustful ones are Jia-de and Bao-li or some in HK and Taipei. Fakes stuffs don't flow into there cos they are authenticated by world's greatest experts.

You don't have to inform me about fakes & real of Yixings..here in China, the possibility of being exposed to that is much high and what newspapers talking about that things like that daily. Peace.
Hey buddy, you are talking to a native Hong Kong collector. So I am new to the Northern China languages. Just curious you do speak and read Chinese, right?
My mother language isn't english either, but I understand your language no problem. Most of Chinese-speakers don't understand Yixing teapot, either..so I don't see where you drew your points.

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Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

by TIM » Oct 31st, '13, 00:23

chrl42 wrote:
TIM wrote:
chrl42 wrote:
wyardley wrote:
chrl42 wrote:
wyardley wrote:
Easier than that. If everything is uncertain and abstract, then there would be no one dares to publish books or sell old pots.
http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2013/china-art-fraud/
cannot be loaded, nytimes often doesn't work in China.
I think maybe you're taking my comment the wrong way. Anyway, the article is just about the prevalence of forgeries even at pretty high levels in Chinese art / porcelain. There's a lot of demand for expensive items (and a lot of people with more money than expertise at authenticating teapots).

So, I don't think the fact that there are vendors / auction houses who sell old pots and people who buy them means that there aren't an awful lot of fakes out there being sold as authentic.
Buddy...I live in China....

What I am doing here is basically facing 99% fakes...and try to find a way to survive out of them.

We have a Yixing collector seminar Beijing branch annually, except for that, most of Yixing collectors DO NOT understand Yixing teapot of older period. Master Yixing teapot price skyrocketted, antique Yixing price not so much, profound reason is too many don't understand the older teapots..they just gave up studying them.

Very few old teapot collectors have sources here and out, to SE asia to Japan, to museums or even unearthen products....you go to auctions...even auctions deal fakes goods or quality not high. The most trustful ones are Jia-de and Bao-li or some in HK and Taipei. Fakes stuffs don't flow into there cos they are authenticated by world's greatest experts.

You don't have to inform me about fakes & real of Yixings..here in China, the possibility of being exposed to that is much high and what newspapers talking about that things like that daily. Peace.
Hey buddy, you are talking to a native Hong Kong collector. So I am new to the Northern China languages. Just curious you do speak and read Chinese, right?
My mother language isn't english either, but I understand your language no problem. Most of Chinese-speakers don't understand Yixing teapot, either..so I don't see where you drew your points.
You understand Cantonese! Great! Its a different tradition all an all. Yixing and Tea culture, thats where I drew my points.

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Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

by wyardley » Oct 31st, '13, 00:27

chrl42 wrote:But you don't seem to understand my point though, cos I didn't say the seal test work for 99% of 6-seal pots..you just don't seem to have an idea of what I was saying...my point is most of time the seal test for 6-letter work..and how other based facts do you have to oppose my (and other collectors) idea which is very known facts.
Where did I contradict that?

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