Zhongguo Yixing Seal


Discussion on virtually any teaware related item.

Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

Postby chrl42 » Oct 31st, '13, 00:28

TIM wrote:
chrl42 wrote:
TIM wrote:
chrl42 wrote:
wyardley wrote:
chrl42 wrote:
wyardley wrote:
Easier than that. If everything is uncertain and abstract, then there would be no one dares to publish books or sell old pots.

http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2013/china-art-fraud/

cannot be loaded, nytimes often doesn't work in China.

I think maybe you're taking my comment the wrong way. Anyway, the article is just about the prevalence of forgeries even at pretty high levels in Chinese art / porcelain. There's a lot of demand for expensive items (and a lot of people with more money than expertise at authenticating teapots).

So, I don't think the fact that there are vendors / auction houses who sell old pots and people who buy them means that there aren't an awful lot of fakes out there being sold as authentic.

Buddy...I live in China....

What I am doing here is basically facing 99% fakes...and try to find a way to survive out of them.

We have a Yixing collector seminar Beijing branch annually, except for that, most of Yixing collectors DO NOT understand Yixing teapot of older period. Master Yixing teapot price skyrocketted, antique Yixing price not so much, profound reason is too many don't understand the older teapots..they just gave up studying them.

Very few old teapot collectors have sources here and out, to SE asia to Japan, to museums or even unearthen products....you go to auctions...even auctions deal fakes goods or quality not high. The most trustful ones are Jia-de and Bao-li or some in HK and Taipei. Fakes stuffs don't flow into there cos they are authenticated by world's greatest experts.

You don't have to inform me about fakes & real of Yixings..here in China, the possibility of being exposed to that is much high and what newspapers talking about that things like that daily. Peace.


Hey buddy, you are talking to a native Hong Kong collector. So I am new to the Northern China languages. Just curious you do speak and read Chinese, right?

My mother language isn't english either, but I understand your language no problem. Most of Chinese-speakers don't understand Yixing teapot, either..so I don't see where you drew your points.


You understand Cantonese! Great! Its a different tradition all an all. Yixing and Tea culture, thats where I drew my points.

I do have friends who speak Cantonese and Fukinese, and no they don't understand Yixing teapot :mrgreen:
User avatar
chrl42
 
Posts: 1352
Joined: Mar 22nd, '
Location: Beijing

Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

Postby TIM » Oct 31st, '13, 00:29

chrl42 wrote:
TIM wrote:
chrl42 wrote:
TIM wrote:
chrl42 wrote:
wyardley wrote:
chrl42 wrote:
wyardley wrote:
Easier than that. If everything is uncertain and abstract, then there would be no one dares to publish books or sell old pots.

http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2013/china-art-fraud/

cannot be loaded, nytimes often doesn't work in China.

I think maybe you're taking my comment the wrong way. Anyway, the article is just about the prevalence of forgeries even at pretty high levels in Chinese art / porcelain. There's a lot of demand for expensive items (and a lot of people with more money than expertise at authenticating teapots).

So, I don't think the fact that there are vendors / auction houses who sell old pots and people who buy them means that there aren't an awful lot of fakes out there being sold as authentic.

Buddy...I live in China....

What I am doing here is basically facing 99% fakes...and try to find a way to survive out of them.

We have a Yixing collector seminar Beijing branch annually, except for that, most of Yixing collectors DO NOT understand Yixing teapot of older period. Master Yixing teapot price skyrocketted, antique Yixing price not so much, profound reason is too many don't understand the older teapots..they just gave up studying them.

Very few old teapot collectors have sources here and out, to SE asia to Japan, to museums or even unearthen products....you go to auctions...even auctions deal fakes goods or quality not high. The most trustful ones are Jia-de and Bao-li or some in HK and Taipei. Fakes stuffs don't flow into there cos they are authenticated by world's greatest experts.

You don't have to inform me about fakes & real of Yixings..here in China, the possibility of being exposed to that is much high and what newspapers talking about that things like that daily. Peace.


Hey buddy, you are talking to a native Hong Kong collector. So I am new to the Northern China languages. Just curious you do speak and read Chinese, right?

My mother language isn't english either, but I understand your language no problem. Most of Chinese-speakers don't understand Yixing teapot, either..so I don't see where you drew your points.


You understand Cantonese! Great! Its a different tradition all an all. Yixing and Tea culture, thats where I drew my points.

I do have friends who speak Cantonese and Fukinese, and no they don't understand Yixing teapot :mrgreen:


You really missing the point and losing me now.
User avatar
TIM
Vendor Member
 
Posts: 2042
Joined: Apr 4th, '0
Location: NYC

Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

Postby chrl42 » Oct 31st, '13, 01:00

TIM wrote:
chrl42 wrote:
TIM wrote:
chrl42 wrote:
TIM wrote:
chrl42 wrote:
wyardley wrote:
chrl42 wrote:
wyardley wrote:
Easier than that. If everything is uncertain and abstract, then there would be no one dares to publish books or sell old pots.

http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2013/china-art-fraud/

cannot be loaded, nytimes often doesn't work in China.

I think maybe you're taking my comment the wrong way. Anyway, the article is just about the prevalence of forgeries even at pretty high levels in Chinese art / porcelain. There's a lot of demand for expensive items (and a lot of people with more money than expertise at authenticating teapots).

So, I don't think the fact that there are vendors / auction houses who sell old pots and people who buy them means that there aren't an awful lot of fakes out there being sold as authentic.

Buddy...I live in China....

What I am doing here is basically facing 99% fakes...and try to find a way to survive out of them.

We have a Yixing collector seminar Beijing branch annually, except for that, most of Yixing collectors DO NOT understand Yixing teapot of older period. Master Yixing teapot price skyrocketted, antique Yixing price not so much, profound reason is too many don't understand the older teapots..they just gave up studying them.

Very few old teapot collectors have sources here and out, to SE asia to Japan, to museums or even unearthen products....you go to auctions...even auctions deal fakes goods or quality not high. The most trustful ones are Jia-de and Bao-li or some in HK and Taipei. Fakes stuffs don't flow into there cos they are authenticated by world's greatest experts.

You don't have to inform me about fakes & real of Yixings..here in China, the possibility of being exposed to that is much high and what newspapers talking about that things like that daily. Peace.


Hey buddy, you are talking to a native Hong Kong collector. So I am new to the Northern China languages. Just curious you do speak and read Chinese, right?

My mother language isn't english either, but I understand your language no problem. Most of Chinese-speakers don't understand Yixing teapot, either..so I don't see where you drew your points.


You understand Cantonese! Great! Its a different tradition all an all. Yixing and Tea culture, thats where I drew my points.

I do have friends who speak Cantonese and Fukinese, and no they don't understand Yixing teapot :mrgreen:


You really missing the point and losing me now.

Fair enough..

I am out of reply-to-reply now. Hoping the next conversation to be more constructive (not this one was un-constructive) and Yixing-oriented :mrgreen: Peace.
User avatar
chrl42
 
Posts: 1352
Joined: Mar 22nd, '
Location: Beijing

Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

Postby wert » Oct 31st, '13, 01:02

Heheee, looks like I am not getting anyone's point. :D

@TIM Yes, I bought it new and I had used it for oolong (mostly tgy) all along.

To return to the pot, can we safely conclude
1)I am not getting an apartment from this :P
2)This is not Factory 1 due to the clay type and how it is made.
3)It isn't too old either, I can only say it is before 2000s because I bought it then or 99-98 period.

Personally, I think this shape is commonly called 鸭嘴水平 but I think most people used 鸽嘴 and 鸭嘴 interchangeably. I am not saying it is the correct name thou.

Back to a point that Teaism made, the loud majorities making things true. I can ask 10 people on their opinions about a pot or tea, 9 guys have the same opinion but that doesn't mean they are right. Many a times, they are just parroting each other. In reverse, people with more experience and knowledge are generally cautious and would not give a straight opinion, unless you are very close and know them very well. This is their way of covering their bases but it is rather frustrating to the "uneducated" as well.
wert
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Aug 26th, '

Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

Postby chrl42 » Oct 31st, '13, 01:10

wert wrote:Heheee, looks like I am not getting anyone's point. :D

@TIM Yes, I bought it new and I had used it for oolong (mostly tgy) all along.

To return to the pot, can we safely conclude
1)I am not getting an apartment from this :P
2)This is not Factory 1 due to the clay type and how it is made.
3)It isn't too old either, I can only say it is before 2000s because I bought it then or 99-98 period.

Personally, I think this shape is commonly called 鸭嘴水平 but I think most people used 鸽嘴 and 鸭嘴 interchangeably. I am not saying it is the correct name thou.

Back to a point that Teaism made, the loud majorities making things true. I can ask 10 people on their opinions about a pot or tea, 9 guys have the same opinion but that doesn't mean they are right. Many a times, they are just parroting each other. In reverse, people with more experience and knowledge are generally cautious and would not give a straight opinion, unless you are very close and know them very well. This is their way of covering their bases but it is rather frustrating to the "uneducated" as well.

Thnx for retaking the pics, your pot's clay seems Jia Zi Ni (aka Hei Xing Tu) kind...however another question pops out, too.

荆溪南孟臣製-seal was used during 5~60s, and very little during early-70s. But Jia Zi Ni pots are early-80s product. Early-80s used different seals, so-called 'unportioned' 6-letter seals. Most of pots made of Jia Zi Ni are little pots of various shapes (aka 82-xiaopin). But there ARE SPs made of Jia Zi Ni during late-70s. But quantity are too few..many people don't know that.

Anyway, Jia Zi Ni period's pots were fired in the oily kiln, look at inside the lid, there should be glossy than pots fired in normal gas kilns. JZN pots are seasoned faster and pretty than any other clay-pots. That's all I can say...good luck.
User avatar
chrl42
 
Posts: 1352
Joined: Mar 22nd, '
Location: Beijing

Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

Postby Tead Off » Oct 31st, '13, 01:19

wert wrote:Back to a point that Teaism made, the loud majorities making things true. I can ask 10 people on their opinions about a pot or tea, 9 guys have the same opinion but that doesn't mean they are right. Many a times, they are just parroting each other. In reverse, people with more experience and knowledge are generally cautious and would not give a straight opinion, unless you are very close and know them very well. This is their way of covering their bases but it is rather frustrating to the "uneducated" as well.

We are all parroting, wert. The side you choose depends on many factors. The Chinese themselves, have created this quagmire, due mostly to greed and the penchant for gambling (investing!) in their society. There is too much hocus pocus and mythology surrounding Yixing and what was once a simple handicraft has evolved into a major swindle. The Chinese have single handedly destroyed the art market in the last 20 years. Every serious collector is confronted with deep doubts about anything placed in front of them. Unless you have money to spare, it's better to return to the simple pleasures of enjoying your tea in whatever you think makes you happy.
User avatar
Tead Off
Vendor Member
 
Posts: 3215
Joined: Apr 1st, '0
Location: Bangkok

Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

Postby TIM » Oct 31st, '13, 01:35

Image

Image

Clay type and feel looks similar? IMHO yours is 1980's Purple Grape Sand mixed Purple clay (Thicker wall). Factory coal kiln high fired.
User avatar
TIM
Vendor Member
 
Posts: 2042
Joined: Apr 4th, '0
Location: NYC

Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

Postby wert » Oct 31st, '13, 02:09

@chrl42
Thanks so much for your insights. In my opinion, it is at best a 80s product, it doesn't feel "old". If it helps, I remembered it comes in those standard white cardbox.

@Tead Off
Haizz... Sometimes, I wonder if I am better off if I just go on drinking tea my own way. I got an headache almost every time I tried to learn more.:D I agree with you this labelling and branding is mainly due to commercial interest.

@Tim
It looks different, mine definitely don't have any "bright" specks like yours. The clay itself is quite smooth but not tender. You can't see the black specks unless you look very closely, on the surface it looks like an uniform dark brown. Can I ask what's Purple Grape Sand mixed Purple clay? the chinese name for it if possible.

I included a better picture of the lid, the chip might give a better view of the clay.
Attachments
20131030_210640re.jpg
20131030_210640re.jpg (89.02 KiB) Viewed 390 times
wert
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Aug 26th, '

Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

Postby chrl42 » Oct 31st, '13, 06:32

wert wrote:@chrl42
Thanks so much for your insights. In my opinion, it is at best a 80s product, it doesn't feel "old". If it helps, I remembered it comes in those standard white cardbox.

I wonder what kind of cardbox that is.

White cardbox (with 'made in China' & pot pic in red print) is earlier than black or patterned cardboxes..some people who are doubtful (like Teasim :mrgreen:) about purchasing Yixings only buy pots packed in F1 cardboxes..white cardboxes are 7~80s export-Yixings from my understanding.

But then again, there are many 'white' cardboxes out there :)
User avatar
chrl42
 
Posts: 1352
Joined: Mar 22nd, '
Location: Beijing

Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

Postby wert » Oct 31st, '13, 06:47

I can't really remember...I think they were just plain white, can't really be sure. It is a number of years.

I only remember as much because this is the first teapot I bought myself, the others were those lying around the house. I remember selecting the pot and the shopkeeper taking a new one from a big box of similar white cardboxes. I was a student then, not much money so I choose a cheap one, it is like $20 or $40.
wert
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Aug 26th, '

Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

Postby tequiero » Nov 7th, '13, 20:24

What Chris42 said about pigeon beak shui ping is exactly correct. One of the founding grandfathers of Taiwan yixing collection wrote a lot about this style.
His photo of this style:
http://blog.yimg.com/2/RGCV2N97s58COnW6TfGqE7eH.zAKiZQWlgHEAYVCu02ZieJOBr6.jg--/33/l/gNCQD7H3RaRESfG5yOnbag.jpg

Another photo showing the 18 holes - for SE Asia market (there is another style of strainer for Japanese market)
http://blog.yimg.com/2/RGCV2N97s58COnW6TfGqE7eH.zAKiZQWlgHEAYVCu02ZieJOBr6.jg--/35/l/xF2IAUHnXYots4gFLavC6A.jpg

This is one of his articles about this style (it requires translation though):
http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/yata-art/article?mid=2447&prev=2625&next=2321&l=f&fid=18

The term of pigeon beak shui ping is commonly known among yixing collectors in Hong Kong, Taiwan and the rest of Asia. Obviously it's well known in the States as well, according to Wert and Yardley. It's also sometimes called duck mouth shui ping. But it's a shame that the discussion largely turned into argument on bird bills. What Chris42 said about characteristics of these teapots are way more interesting than the bird bills. Hope to see more pictures and more discussion on the interesting stuff.
tequiero
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Oct 30th, '

Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

Postby wert » Nov 7th, '13, 22:34

I found the black shuping in the storage with 6 character 荊溪惠 seal. The clay itself feels ok, should be normal 80s stuff. The word 荊 is a bit off thou. The forum is a pain to post pictures. :/

[edit]seal posted...
Attachments
seal.jpg
seal.jpg (84.86 KiB) Viewed 302 times
wert
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Aug 26th, '

Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

Postby chrl42 » Nov 8th, '13, 04:44

ya..it's not ROC~70s traditional 6-character seal.
User avatar
chrl42
 
Posts: 1352
Joined: Mar 22nd, '
Location: Beijing

Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

Postby Tead Off » Dec 13th, '13, 11:30

Can anyone confirm the earliest use of the Zhongguo Yixing seal? I have heard it began to be used in the 1930's.
User avatar
Tead Off
Vendor Member
 
Posts: 3215
Joined: Apr 1st, '0
Location: Bangkok

Re: Zhongguo Yixing Seal

Postby chrl42 » Dec 13th, '13, 22:08

Tead Off wrote:Can anyone confirm the earliest use of the Zhongguo Yixing seal? I have heard it began to be used in the 1930's.

From what I know, the term Zhong Guo (China) has been used since Mao's dominant of 1949.

You might have it confused with 宜興紫砂 or 陽羨紫砂 :)
User avatar
chrl42
 
Posts: 1352
Joined: Mar 22nd, '
Location: Beijing

PreviousNext

Instant Messenger

Permissions
You cannot post new topics
You cannot reply to topics
You cannot edit your posts
You cannot delete your posts
You cannot post attachments
Navigation