Taiwan clay teapot from Taiwan Tea Crafts (cobalt mist)

[NPE]

Stephane from Teamasters recommended me not to purchase any pots made of Taiwanese clay, after asking him if he could sell me one as a kind of a favour, because they of the amount of chemicals they add to the clay. He doesn't sell any for that reason (...)

Well, I have not had my teapots analysed in a lab, but I personally am going to give them the benefit of the doubt.
I am sure that there are also quite some yixing teapots out there with more than a healthy dose of added something. It is most probably an over-generalization to say that ALL Taiwanese clay teapots have too many chemicals added, just the same way as it would be to say that all Yixings are sloppily mass produced and chemically enhanced. Just because there are some "bad eggs" that does not mean that all is rotten.

As for the TTC yixing teapots, I have no idea, so I'll keep schtum about them.

[bagua7]

Do you live in Taiwan? You don't so don't take things for granted. Besides someone more qualified than I recommended me not buying the Yixing pots sold by that vendor after I asked him for his personal opinion...By the way this person lives in China and his fully immersed in Chinese tea culture; so buyer beware when it comes to online shopping.

[the_economist]

Wow that's a little harsh bagua. You don't live in Taiwan either, and there are people who live in Taiwan that would say not all Taiwanese clay pots have harmful chemicals in them.

I'm definitely not defending the pots on Taiwan Tea Crafts. At least one of the so-called 'yixing pots' on their site I strongly suspect to be Taiwan or Chaozhou made. But bagua's generalization is too sweeping, even if his learned, Chinese-dwelling, tea-culture immersed friend is giving great advice.

[茶藝-TeaArt08]

I've both lived in and studied tea in Taiwan and return there each year for 6 weeks to be with my qin and tea teachers. But I don't know what that adds to the conversation. The recommendation that all Taiwanese clay is suspect seems itself suspect to me. As NPE pointed out, there are probably more than a few suspect Chinese (mainland) clays floating around that are sold as Yixing clay or pots that may themselves be harmful. Living in Taiwan and studying tea there, clay was discussed much the same way it is anywhere. Basically, sources vary and different masters use different sources. Some masters will tell you their sources. In fact, while traveling with my teacher to visit various pottery masters' works, some masters told us exactly where there clay came from. Like many potters, one master bought clay from at least four different places in the world, not Taiwan sourced. So to assume a clay or a pot, merely by being Taiwanese, is suspect seems to me a broad overgeneralization. Having traveled the island, the ecological/geological landscape is highly diverse and it seems a fair assumption that the landscape would yield many different soil/clay profiles/outcomes. That said, the only way to know is to test the clay or the pot. But I find no reason to assume that clays from Taiwan are any more suspect than clays from anywhere else or that Taiwanese teaware is any more suspect than teaware from another country/region. Again, just because a Taiwanese pot is made in Taiwan also does not necessitate that the pot is made of Taiwanese clay, even if all Taiwanese clay is suspect.

It would be hard for me to believe that someone such as Xu Dejia would be using toxic clays in his masterful works. Though I have not met him personally to inquire with him. Taking tea as an example, some farms spray pesticides, some farms are organic, and others are biodynamic. The diversity of final leaf product and its quality is great. It seems only logical to carefully assume such would be the case for clays as well. I will inquire more on this in my next correspondence with my teacher and when in Taiwan this year.

Blessings!

[William]

Stephane from Teamasters recommended me not to purchase any pots made of Taiwanese clay, after asking him if he could sell me one as a kind of a favour, because they of the amount of chemicals they add to the clay. He doesn't sell any for that reason (but he could if he wanted to).

Also that pot is way overpriced and their Yixings are no good either (good sales pitch to sell them though):

http://www.taiwanteacrafts.com/shop/pro ... g-teaware/

Hi Bagua,
Normally, in order to discern the false from the true you rely on the opinion of just one person?

Have you personally bought and tried some of their Taiwanese teapots and/or one of their Yi Xing teapots?

[Thé Addict]

I have bought an Yixing teapot from TTC before, so I can share my experience.

TTC described the teapot as a zhuni teapot (though with a slight degree of uncertainty if one reads between the lines) that has acquired a nice patina (i.e. it is a used pot). It was also described as moulded and hand-finished (which I suppose means it was half-handmade).

When I received the teapot, my first impressions were that it seemed a little too smooth, glossy and perhaps somewhat dirty. However, both the smoothness/gloss and the "dirt" could be due to it being a used teapot. It does seem to have patina build-up, but some surface dirt was easily scrubbed off. This could mean that whoever used the teapot did not clean it thoroughly and could have tried to acquired patina by soaking it in tea/pouring tea over it over a long time.

As for the clay, it was a deep red, not tending towards orange as in the case of many supposed zhuni teapots I have seen. In fact, the color seems to be deeper than most zhuni I have seen, but this could also have been due to it being a used teapot. When I knock the top of the lid against the body, it does have a high-pitched, metallic ping. However, the teapot does not have distinct "muscle lines" (perhaps some very faint ones) that zhuni is often said to have.

It is a rather thin-walled pot, but it does not resemble chaozhou teapots as it does not have the concentric circles characteristic of chaozhou teapots. It does seem to be a half-handmade Yixing teapot with the typical "scratch marks" on the interior bottom of the teapot.

The teapot seems to have been made by a studio called 瑞祥阁 (Rui Xiang Ge), as indicated by the seal at the external bottom of the teapot. There are no other stamps on it.

Overall, I think TTC's descriptions are to the best of their knowledge when the facts are concerned. However, they do have a penchant for couching their descriptions in excessively beautified language. I don't think they intentionally sell bad or fake teapots, but because of the complexity of the Yixing world, they are not all that aware of exactly where the teapots come from (e.g. which era, factory, artist) or what clay it is, they might unwittingly sell things that some of us would fine dubious.

@Bagua: Is it convenient for you to clarify that you were recommended to not buy Yixings from TTC? If so, were there any reasons given?

[Tead Off]

Keep in mind that some people use the word zhuni to describe red clay, all red clays. After all, zhuni means red clay. But, I also think it is not that easy for most people to identify real zhuni or mixed zhuni. Then, there are the different levels of hongni, qing shui ni, & di qiao qing. Plus, there are other red clays.

The ones that are featured on TTC are not the old zhuni clays that most people talk about, IMO. They look like nice pots and his story is very plausible.

[Thé Addict]

Keep in mind that some people use the word zhuni to describe red clay, all red clays. After all, zhuni means red clay. But, I also think it is not that easy for most people to identify real zhuni or mixed zhuni. Then, there are the different levels of hongni, qing shui ni, & di qiao qing. Plus, there are other red clays.

The ones that are featured on TTC are not the old zhuni clays that most people talk about, IMO. They look like nice pots and his story is very plausible.

Thanks for the reminder about the clay terms. I probably relied too much on my gut feeling that TTC's description for the particular teapot I bought was phrased in a way that referred to zhuni rather than other red-colored clay.

What I find interesting is that the texture of the teapot I got doesn't seem to be similar most other Yixing clay stuff I have either. I would also like to clarify that the unusually smooth texture that I'm talking about is only on the outside and could partly have been due to extensive teapot raising.

I would agree that the story about TTC's acquisition of teapots is plausible (though I'm not sure if it's supposed to apply to every teapot sold in TTC). When I said that they can't be sure of the origin of the teapots, I was thinking that since they didn't source the teapots from Yixing artists or studios directly, there is probably no information from the makers themselves about the clays used, etc. This may be something some of us want to take into consideration

[Tead Off]

They do mention they got theirs from a former distributor who retired in the early 90's.

The clay on the exterior is going to be different looking than the interior even on brand new Yixing teapots. They paddle the exterior in the forming of the teapot which can add a smooth, burnished look to a pot while the interior remains dull looking. In my experience, there are many formulations of texture, color, and clays using various zisha clays. It's hard to rely on one standardized look to identify a Yixing.

The page I looked at features only the teapots from the retired distributor. They are all unused, new looking, old stock. There are many teapots from Taiwan and SE Asia that have sat for decades without use.

[Thé Addict]

In my experience, there are many formulations of texture, color, and clays using various zisha clays. It's hard to rely on one standardized look to identify a Yixing.

Certainly. It's just that the one I had was unusual based on the range of Yixings I have seen (and I'm far from being an expert), so it did raise my eyebrows at first. Nevertheless, it has served me well so far after some cleaning, so I'm wondering if there was any reason Bagua was told to avoid the shop. I would have bought another one or two from the recent batch if I had all the dough in the world, and would certainly like to hear from others here if there is any compelling reason to buy/not buy from TTC.

[Tead Off]

Buying online is always scary with Yixing. Because I am a vendor and a tea drinker, I always give buyers of the teaware I sell a 100% guarantee of return. If they don't like it, they don't have to keep it for whatever reason they have. I think all vendors who sell online should have this kind of policy. After all, nothing substitutes for having the actual teaware in your hand to see how you like it.

[Noonie]

Note: I do not measure and calculate gr to ml ratio as I think a calculator and some 'drug-scales' destroy the lovely atmosphere of a tea session

+1

I'm an analytical person by nature, but when it comes to tea I feel it ruins the ambiance to start measuring things.

[kikula]

Toxicity and poor quality are two different charges. "Chemicals" is a term that could refer to many non-toxic (and often perfectly "natural") materials used to alter the texture of a clay or its color in firing and from contact with ordinary potters I understand that these are very frequently used - it's part of the normal process. Those blue pots sold by Taiwan Tea Craft certainly have some "chemical" glaze or clay additive - the whole process of pottery involves a great deal of chemistry.
One wouldn't leap to the conclusion that a piece is toxic, I'd think, without ascertaining for certain which chemical was present. It's a heavy charge and I'd want to be certain of its accuracy before abandoning a reputable vendor. Caveat - I claim absolutely no expertise in these matters and long ago gave up on the quest for an "authentic" old yixing pot as verification appears to be nearly impossible, even for museum curators, and there's no clarity about whether or not any modern "yixing" pots are actually made of a clay that's all but disappeared.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but seems to me that it's one thing to say "not true yixing" or "not the best quality", which seems endlessly (and often not definitively) arguable, and another to declare an item "dangerous" without some sort of demonstrative proof.
Also, I do doubt that Taiwan clays are more frequently adulterated (and that could mean a number of things) than Chinese products - that's very clearly endemic everywhere.

[茶藝-TeaArt08]

Buying online is always scary with Yixing. Because I am a vendor and a tea drinker, I always give buyers of the teaware I sell a 100% guarantee of return. If they don't like it, they don't have to keep it for whatever reason they have. I think all vendors who sell online should have this kind of policy. After all, nothing substitutes for having the actual teaware in your hand to see how you like it.

Tead Off, I really appreciate the selling disposition you mention above. Until joining TeaChat, I had never bought any teaware online. I waited and searched each year in Taiwan, buying in person. There really is no substitute for being in the presence of an object and evaluating it, holding it, and feeling one's response to it. That said, I have had some online orders be underwhelming or disappointing (though overall my orders have been very quality) and have honed my image analysis skills to really look at the details in a photo to try to avoid future disappointment. I applaud your philosophy in regards to purchases of teaware.

Blessings!

[茶藝-TeaArt08]

One wouldn't leap to the conclusion that a piece is toxic, I'd think, without ascertaining for certain which chemical was present. It's a heavy charge and I'd want to be certain of its accuracy before abandoning a reputable vendor.

+1 The above is true for me regardless of who the vendor is.

Bagua7's point was about additives to clay. And again, it's difficult for me to believe every Taiwanese potter's clay would be suspect on every teapot for the reasons I've already mentioned in my prior post. There are many artisans in Taiwan and it seems to me incredulous that all Taiwan pottery/teapots would be suspect or that Taiwanese potters uniformly add chemicals/additives to their clay that completely result in unsafe pots. Again, one would want to be careful in their assertions. From his blog, I respect Stephane and his perspectives but would need further clarification on his purported unwillingness to sell Taiwanese teapots before I would be unduly swayed to avoid Taiwanese wares. I would not bring any special caution to Taiwanese teaware that I wouldn't also bring to any other teaware I wanted to source. In fact, honestly, I'd personally be much more conscious around any teapots from China. This is due to certain dealings I have had with mainland Chinese culture. A common mistake many people make is to incorporate Taiwan into China. Taiwanese culture, while ostensibly Chinese, is a distinct and individual expression of Chinese culture and I don't want to digress too far into differences post (and pre) 1949 between the mainland and Taiwan. However, even with regards to mainland Chinese wares, I remain open.

Potters, I assume, the world over have varied sources for their clays and mix them or don't as they see fit. Even Petr Novak has discussed this somewhat on his blog (http://potsandtea.blogspot.com/2013/11/ ... clays.html):

"How natural are your clays"? I can replay that clays are natural by nature. But this answer would not go to the point, would it? Clays can be mixed together and grinded to desired characteristic. Clays can be also enrich by natural as well as more or less artificial additives: river sand, quartz, grog, feldspar, iron scales, saw dust, oxides of different metals or other colorants and so on... the list can be quite long. Clay companies usually creates recipe of new clay by mixing several clays from several mines/deposits, then grind them to fine, seamless clay, add grog of certain grain size as bones of the clay and other additives, if needed. All is mixed again and "pug-milled" to plactic bags. Such bags are then waiting for potters as we are, ready to use. Or, in order to create our own recipe with special quality we are looking for, can be mixed and adjust again. This practice have quite a few obvious benefits and most of our clays come to our studio this way (we pay attention to companies we buy from - clay have to be simple, without any artificial colorants or additions). Getting clays this way means less of the hard work, stable clay body and pretty wide range of different clays to work with. But there is few things missing and that is why we keep searching for really natural clays." (Petr Novak)

Blessings!