Help With Identifying Old Chinese Teapot


Discussion on virtually any teaware related item.

Help With Identifying Old Chinese Teapot

Postby aka_fallen121 » Apr 28th, '14, 06:58

Can anyone tell me what this is? I only know that it is Chinese and quite old. My Father purchased it at auction in Hong Kong in 1973. I don't know how much he paid or what it is worth. I would like to sell it, but I have no idea if it is worth putting into an auction, perhaps eBay would be better? I have asked for opinions but have been told it is not worth very much. Was my Father misled into thinking it was something valuable? I think it was a reputable auction house.

I am so sorry that I can't get these images to display properly. They are too large for the site I think, but they won't even work when I host them on Photobucket.

http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a556/fallen121/Teapot4_zps158b5371.jpg
http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a556/fallen121/Teapot2_zps525b5328.jpg
http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a556/fallen121/Teapot3_zpsd5f8389a.jpg
http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a556/fallen121/Teapot1_zpsc6de28a4.jpg
aka_fallen121
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Dec 24th, '

Re: Help With Identifying Old Chinese Teapot

Postby kyarazen » Apr 28th, '14, 14:30

aka_fallen121 wrote:Can anyone tell me what this is? I only know that it is Chinese and quite old. My Father purchased it at auction in Hong Kong in 1973. I don't know how much he paid or what it is worth. I would like to sell it, but I have no idea if it is worth putting into an auction, perhaps eBay would be better? I have asked for opinions but have been told it is not worth very much. Was my Father misled into thinking it was something valuable? I think it was a reputable auction house.

I am so sorry that I can't get these images to display properly. They are too large for the site I think, but they won't even work when I host them on Photobucket.


best to get the images within 600 px

is the inside a different clay from the outside? looks like a nei-zi-wai-hong i.e. outside red inside purple clay.. that could be quite an indication
User avatar
kyarazen
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Sep 2nd, '1
Location: in your tea closet

Re: Help With Identifying Old Chinese Teapot

Postby aka_fallen121 » Apr 28th, '14, 18:10

Ok I will get some better quality images of inside and outside.

Glad to know I have come to the right place as you obviously have some idea what it might possibly be!

I need to leave for work real soon but will try and get back with some new and better pics within 24 hours.
aka_fallen121
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Dec 24th, '

Re: Help With Identifying Old Chinese Teapot

Postby the_economist » Apr 28th, '14, 19:39

Interesting...this could turn out to be something quite exciting :)
User avatar
the_economist
 
Posts: 663
Joined: Sep 4th, '1

Re: Help With Identifying Old Chinese Teapot

Postby aka_fallen121 » Apr 30th, '14, 16:21

Ok. I have done some new photos which I have not cropped so you will be able to see some detail I hope. Also used flash this time.

The pot appears to be brown clay inside and outside. The flash may give a slight reddish cast but it is definitely brown, NOT red outside and brown, NOT purple inside.

Glad people are getting excited. I had shown photos to a few tea enthusiasts but was told not rare and not worth very much which surprised me as would an auction house even bother to auction a teapot if it was cheap and common?

http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a556/fallen121/NewTeapot1_zpsa1981cad.jpg

http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a556/fallen121/InsidePot_zps1b020cc4.jpg

http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a556/fallen121/NewTeapot2_zpsaf5d0d8a.jpg

http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a556/fallen121/NewTeapot3_zps25b62da7.jpg
aka_fallen121
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Dec 24th, '

Re: Help With Identifying Old Chinese Teapot

Postby the_economist » Apr 30th, '14, 18:26

Who are these fellow-tea-enthusiasts?

I think it's old in the sense that it is from the Cultural Revolution period, but they are probably right that it is common. The clay doesn't look very appealing to my non-expert eyes. I couldn't name the clay for you.

If you're hoping that it is a master level pot, the chance for that is pretty slim I think.
User avatar
the_economist
 
Posts: 663
Joined: Sep 4th, '1

Re: Help With Identifying Old Chinese Teapot

Postby kyarazen » Apr 30th, '14, 21:43

aka_fallen121 wrote:Ok. I have done some new photos which I have not cropped so you will be able to see some detail I hope. Also used flash this time.

The pot appears to be brown clay inside and outside. The flash may give a slight reddish cast but it is definitely brown, NOT red outside and brown, NOT purple inside.

Glad people are getting excited. I had shown photos to a few tea enthusiasts but was told not rare and not worth very much which surprised me as would an auction house even bother to auction a teapot if it was cheap and common?

http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a55 ... 981cad.jpg

http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a55 ... 020cc4.jpg

http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a55 ... 5d0d8a.jpg

http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a55 ... b62da7.jpg


the inside is purple clay from what i see. just that the coloration is rather close to the outside. outside's dipped/coated with a fine layer of zhuni/hongni :D
User avatar
kyarazen
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Sep 2nd, '1
Location: in your tea closet

Re: Help With Identifying Old Chinese Teapot

Postby .m. » May 2nd, '14, 23:11

.m.
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Dec 22nd, '

Re: Help With Identifying Old Chinese Teapot

Postby Tead Off » May 3rd, '14, 04:20


To me, that looks like an ROC pot. I don't see the difference in color between inside and outside on either one.

Common is relative. Depends who the evaluator is.
User avatar
Tead Off
Vendor Member
 
Posts: 3435
Joined: Apr 1st, '0
Location: Bangkok

Re: Help With Identifying Old Chinese Teapot

Postby MarshalN » May 3rd, '14, 05:18

Tead Off wrote:

To me, that looks like an ROC pot. I don't see the difference in color between inside and outside on either one.

Common is relative. Depends who the evaluator is.


Agreed on the colour difference - I don't see it either, seems to be an artifact of camera lighting rather than actual difference in clay colour
User avatar
MarshalN
 
Posts: 2105
Joined: Mar 15th, '

Re: Help With Identifying Old Chinese Teapot

Postby chrl42 » May 3rd, '14, 05:49

Tead Off wrote:

To me, that looks like an ROC pot. I don't see the difference in color between inside and outside on either one.

Common is relative. Depends who the evaluator is.

I don't see any joint lines, how can a ROC teapot not have a joint line?

ROC ones are mostly exportation pots, good in perfection and many are master-made. That pot isn't even close to the level of the CR.
User avatar
chrl42
 
Posts: 1540
Joined: Mar 22nd, '
Location: Beijing

Re: Help With Identifying Old Chinese Teapot

Postby Tead Off » May 3rd, '14, 08:29

But there are no pics of the inside so how can you say there are no joint lines? Plus, many old pots don't show joint lines on the exterior. The auctions are full of them.
User avatar
Tead Off
Vendor Member
 
Posts: 3435
Joined: Apr 1st, '0
Location: Bangkok

Re: Help With Identifying Old Chinese Teapot

Postby MarshalN » May 3rd, '14, 08:45

chrl42 wrote:
Tead Off wrote:

To me, that looks like an ROC pot. I don't see the difference in color between inside and outside on either one.

Common is relative. Depends who the evaluator is.

I don't see any joint lines, how can a ROC teapot not have a joint line?

ROC ones are mostly exportation pots, good in perfection and many are master-made. That pot isn't even close to the level of the CR.


Aren't you the one who said there are variations even within periods just a couple days ago in the other thread? When did that change when it comes to joint lines?
User avatar
MarshalN
 
Posts: 2105
Joined: Mar 15th, '

Re: Help With Identifying Old Chinese Teapot

Postby kyarazen » May 3rd, '14, 09:33

since i did read some of mao's writings, the baochun style is one of my favourites due to the philosophy behind them i thought i'll spend some time to chime in on the subject.

plum decorations on pots easily dates back to the 18th century, but this style of plum usage you see here originates from close to 1960s. based on Mao's verses :
Image
of which you can read the line 俏也不争春,只把春来报. beautiful beautiful verse in response to Lv You's writings in song dynasty.
驿外断桥边,寂寞开无主。已是黄昏独自愁,更著风和雨。无意苦争春,一任群芳妒。零落成泥碾作尘,只有香如故。

inspired by mao's writing, zhu-kexin created the "bao chun" style since then, and there are many other permutations other than the original shape. yours here is one of the variations known as : 矮梅报春壶 or in short 矮梅壶, short plum pot.

Image

the theme is a little past the ROC period which is why i feel the pot isnt that early and most probably into the CR era already. this sort of 矮梅报春壶 did come in pure 紫泥,pure 清水泥, 内紫外红 is also a trademark of this era. on why i didnt think of it to be hong ni, firstly because of the seal area, where you can see the coarse texture, and a bit "pitted", since large pots are fired with their base often placed down, the pitting is not an artifact from the firing. hong ni is smoother than that, similarly the inside of your pot, i could see small sandy grains (unless my screen is pixelated), that is not very characteristic of hong ni of that time. it could be your white balance but the pot is a bit too red for 清水泥, which is a pretty "ripe" type of clay, would not have the texture as per described. the old 清水泥 was silky and smooth,which ended up being an extremely well loved clay by many famous makers.

the patina is a little glossy, mildly waxy looking, the transition of texture occurs near the mouth the pot. without high resolution photos we can only speculate. early nei-zi-wai-hong had quite good clay selection, so much so that the purple clay is not the darkish purple brown of the 80s, but more towards the color of dicaoqing. later date NZWH has larger contrast.

here's an example of a nice NZWH from the CR era, the cup and the lid inside is NZWH, so you can see the red of the lid vs the "purple clay" of the inside of the cup.... its not too far a color contrast.
Image

and if you go closer to look at the texture of how early NZWH stuff is like its pretty much :
Image

the stamp : 吕益仙 is rather generic.. perhaps this person might not have existed and was a "group" collective name/stamp during CR. maybe there was really such a person but his name doesnt appear to be in current records. if you do a search you might find a chinese post that talks about a pot from the 50s with this name stamp.. but imho the person whom posted on gucn probably got the date wrong since his pot's plum inscription/carving is extremely CR style with white glaze. the other record of 吕益仙 stuff was an 80's pot that was seen on potsart.
User avatar
kyarazen
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Sep 2nd, '1
Location: in your tea closet

Re: Help With Identifying Old Chinese Teapot

Postby kyarazen » May 3rd, '14, 09:45

as for valuation, its a bit inconsistent at the moment, such pots were remade in the 80s, 90s.

i was once offered a 70s CR version of this, for $150, but i had to clean its exterior which seemed to be a tad of a beeswax experiment failure.

there are equivalent zi-ni versions of this that are going in malaysia for a hefty 2,000 ringgit (you might be able to bargain it down in person by a good sum though).

or like someone whom had posted the ebay link of a similar pot.. that is pretty interesting/curious because of a pre CR theme yet the pot has a bottom stamp of a maker from late qing/early ROC.. so what would that mean? :) a real wu yun shan ROC pot will be in the range of five to six digits maybe.
User avatar
kyarazen
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Sep 2nd, '1
Location: in your tea closet

Next

Instant Messenger

Permissions
You cannot post new topics
You cannot reply to topics
You cannot edit your posts
You cannot delete your posts
You cannot post attachments
Navigation