Beginner’s Mind and Drinking Tea

For general/other topics related to tea.


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Sep 9th, '14, 11:44
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Beginner’s Mind and Drinking Tea

by sherubtse » Sep 9th, '14, 11:44

Great article from TwoDog on tea drinking and tea drinkers:

http://www.twodogteablog.com/2014/09/09 ... nking-tea/

Best wishes,
sherubtse

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Sep 10th, '14, 07:31
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Re: Beginner’s Mind and Drinking Tea

by sherubtse » Sep 10th, '14, 07:31

Here is another blog post that has related info:

http://teamasters.blogspot.ca/2014/09/t ... tions.html

Best wishes,
sherubtse

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Sep 10th, '14, 10:22
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Re: Beginner’s Mind and Drinking Tea

by Poseidon » Sep 10th, '14, 10:22

Great articles on the subject!

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Sep 10th, '14, 23:34
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by paxl13 » Sep 10th, '14, 23:34

Really great articles that finally got me thinking on how I was approaching tea in general! It is really a nice reflection! All comes down to try to explore on your own and find what you like and what you don't! A journey that can be hard for a scientific like me! Ether way, awesome writing

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Sep 12th, '14, 07:45
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Re: Beginner’s Mind and Drinking Tea

by sherubtse » Sep 12th, '14, 07:45

And here is MarshalN's reply to TwoDog's article, cited above:

http://www.marshaln.com/2014/09/relativism-in-tea/

Best wishes,
sherubtse

Sep 12th, '14, 12:13
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Re: Beginner’s Mind and Drinking Tea

by bonescwa » Sep 12th, '14, 12:13

sherubtse wrote:And here is MarshalN's reply to TwoDog's article, cited above:

http://www.marshaln.com/2014/09/relativism-in-tea/

Best wishes,
sherubtse
Not surprised :roll:

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Sep 12th, '14, 12:47
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Re: Beginner’s Mind and Drinking Tea

by kyarazen » Sep 12th, '14, 12:47

sherubtse wrote:And here is MarshalN's reply to TwoDog's article, cited above:

http://www.marshaln.com/2014/09/relativism-in-tea/

Best wishes,
sherubtse
interesting POV which i do not disagree with.

its all relative eventually.
the older generation tea lovers and "tea masters" will be able to tell you stuff like, what is the taste/olfactory/essential difference between tie luohan vs shuijingui vs bantianyao vs bujiantian vs buzhichun, TKY 1st grade vs TKY 2nd grade, and so on.

how much of these expertise and knowledge is passed on, and how many whom write about tea/tea art can relate such precious knowledge to others? without knowing the classical taste/olfactory profile, the only way tea is now considered "right", "proper", "better" is a simple relative comparison of the offering of merchant A vs merchant B vs merchant C, vs merchant D etc.

a beginner's mind towards tea is important and essential in the "way" of tea. but the purity of a beginner's mind is always taken advantage of by the vested interests and exploitative intents of others with "agendas".

Sep 12th, '14, 15:32
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Re: Beginner’s Mind and Drinking Tea

by steanze » Sep 12th, '14, 15:32

I think the challenge is this:
- there's better quality tea and worse quality tea, if we don't recognize this and we don't evaluate the tea we are drinking we will end up buying low quality tea, and there won't be incentives for the vendors to provide better teas
- at the same time, comparing a tea to others in detail and criticizing it can partly distract us from appreciating that tea for what it is
I find myself drinking tea quite differently if I'm drinking to decide whether I want to buy more of it, and if I'm drinking to enjoy it...

Sep 12th, '14, 22:18
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Re: Beginner’s Mind and Drinking Tea

by wert » Sep 12th, '14, 22:18

Good or bad are both comparative adjectives. Without practical experience and subjective comparison, there is no basis of evaluation. If you have only 1 of anything, it is always "good" till you compare it with another example. So, everyone's definition of good or bad are different, mainly based on how much exposure or the kind of exposure one had. If I have to choose, I rather lean on the opinion of someone with relevant experience.

On the hand, though time, experienced or experts would naturally developed certain prejudice and pre judgement. Worse, they are also a little afraid of making mistakes, offending others or have other vested interest. So it is common to hide behind comments such as "interesting". Thus, getting a honest opinion out of them could be frustrating.

It is better to trust your own "good" or "bad" and keep an open mind. Your own personal "good" or "bad" should naturally evolved as you become more experienced and exposed to more examples. Bet on yourself before betting on others.

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Sep 12th, '14, 22:59
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Re: Beginner’s Mind and Drinking Tea

by kyarazen » Sep 12th, '14, 22:59

steanze wrote:I think the challenge is this:
- there's better quality tea and worse quality tea, if we don't recognize this and we don't evaluate the tea we are drinking we will end up buying low quality tea, and there won't be incentives for the vendors to provide better teas
- at the same time, comparing a tea to others in detail and criticizing it can partly distract us from appreciating that tea for what it is
I find myself drinking tea quite differently if I'm drinking to decide whether I want to buy more of it, and if I'm drinking to enjoy it...
the concept of wabi-sabi and acceptance of imperfection is a beautiful concept if the intent of the maker is pure. there is actually a lot of “心意” that goes into wabi-sabi, focus, concentration, flow, clarity.

i've been spending most of my time seeking out and using fine pots made during the chinese cultural revolution (end 60s to early 70s). these are products of a 单纯的社会 (pure minded society). if there is a flaw, a bad design, a defect, you can see the simplicity and purity of intentions. similarly if a tea is the best produce from a particular plot of land this year made from the good efforts, pure intents of the makers, then we find wabi sabi.

tea art, cha do, the way of tea and other chinese developments like "gongfu" tea requires one to identify good from bad, proper from improper.

by establishing and knowing the opposing extreme characteristics (i.e. good brew, bad brew, good tea, bad tea), the foundation of tea art/ gongfu tea is born, the process of transformation and creation of a nice brew from a not so good tea, the skills of pushing out and heightening the good points of the tea whilst obscuring the bad ones, the process of having tea from a scenario of not having tea etc.

it is a dialectical scenario, to which one needs to study for himself/herself, what are the boundaries, what are the definitions, when is it wabi, when is it not?

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Sep 12th, '14, 23:20
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Re: Beginner’s Mind and Drinking Tea

by chrl42 » Sep 12th, '14, 23:20

I suspect Twodog's main idea is not to become 'idiot' but to remove unnecessary factors that later become a burden when appreciating teas.

Simpler the harder...but that's quite a last stage of arts we should be careful of usage...so I agree with Marshal's side, too.


Nonetheless, that Twodog's article was quite needed one IN this point..as many of us are goin' through adolescent period of tea here :mrgreen:

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Sep 13th, '14, 00:25
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Re: Beginner’s Mind and Drinking Tea

by kyarazen » Sep 13th, '14, 00:25

adolescent period? there are tea drinkers in all different stages, some in infancy, some in child hood. bad upbringing and you mess them up.

met a musician recently, he first picked up the instrument in the 80s. everyone was like.. wow! he has "played" for 30 years!.. in his own words, picked up 30 years ago doesnt mean 30 years of experience in playing nor 30 years of skill. not common amongst tea people to brag the duration of their "experience".

in tea, one can drink blindly for 20 years, 40 years, 50 years, have decades and centuries of experience in tea pots, cups, yixing wares... 执迷不悟(dont understand) is still 不悟 (dont understand).

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Sep 13th, '14, 04:36
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Re: Beginner’s Mind and Drinking Tea

by chrl42 » Sep 13th, '14, 04:36

kyarazen wrote:adolescent period? there are tea drinkers in all different stages, some in infancy, some in child hood. bad upbringing and you mess them up.

met a musician recently, he first picked up the instrument in the 80s. everyone was like.. wow! he has "played" for 30 years!.. in his own words, picked up 30 years ago doesnt mean 30 years of experience in playing nor 30 years of skill. not common amongst tea people to brag the duration of their "experience".

in tea, one can drink blindly for 20 years, 40 years, 50 years, have decades and centuries of experience in tea pots, cups, yixing wares... 执迷不悟(dont understand) is still 不悟 (dont understand).
My sentiments, exactly. The final competition song for the Chopin competition is Concerto no.1, that was written when C was 18. Talent always precedes before experience if you talk about music.

Tea and teaware are extreme, you cannot be the one with a mere talent, nor can you understand after a century of collecting...2 should be met plus the right time, right people to hang out. :)

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Sep 26th, '14, 14:19
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Re: Beginner’s Mind and Drinking Tea

by ABx » Sep 26th, '14, 14:19

Quality shouldn't be confused with value.

There are times and circumstances that I am perfectly happy to drink a tea that is of lower quality. For these things I find teas that are a good value. Some even have *some* of the characteristics of a higher-quality tea, but they still lack characteristics that would make them a high quality tea.

A tea can even be high quality but poor value. Your ability to enjoy or appreciate the tea does not determine its quality, but is absolutely a big part of its value.

Confusing these things tends to be a result of either wanting to save face if you don't know that much, or if you are more interested in the perception of having higher quality teas than you actually have (the former may be part and parcel of the latter -- people that are more interested in being seen as a tea person than actually becoming one). Neither is a good quality for a vendor.

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Sep 27th, '14, 00:08
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Re: Beginner’s Mind and Drinking Tea

by Tead Off » Sep 27th, '14, 00:08

kyarazen wrote: a beginner's mind towards tea is important and essential in the "way" of tea. but the purity of a beginner's mind is always taken advantage of by the vested interests and exploitative intents of others with "agendas".
Try not to forget the agenda that the beginner brings with them! No mind has a clean slate except perhaps that of a newborn. :D But, your points are well taken.

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