A case for older (cheaper) tea?


Made from leaves that have not been oxidized.

For best health benefits, I would ...

Drink later flushes of green tea if they have higher catechin levels
1
4%
Drink 1st flush if it has more catechins
1
4%
Drink more 1st flush to make up for lower catechins
1
4%
Drink more later flushes to make up for lower catechins
0
No votes
I will just drink what I like, 1st flush for me
20
77%
I will drink what I like, later flushes for me
0
No votes
Other
3
12%
 
Total votes : 26

Re: A case for older (cheaper) tea?

Postby entropyembrace » Sep 17th, '11, 22:04

a.serrao wrote:
Kevangogh wrote:I could be wrong, sure - I'll check into it. I'm not taking your word on anything however because based on past experiences with the radiation thing, I know you are easily prone to misinformation.


Again?
What misinformation?
Who is misinformed are you on this.
I've never posted anything without posting also a scientific link or a verifiable source.
About the radiation (open and closed parentheses): I was only asking for radiation tests and sceening, so what misinformation are you talking about?

Then again, IT'S NOT my WORD on catechin contents. There are a plethora of scientific papers on this.


Posting a bunch of links to scientific papers doesn´t verify your argument in and of itself. They actually need to verify your claims. None of the papers you linked to actually measured total catechin content of 1st flush sencha vs later flushes.
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Re: A case for older (cheaper) tea?

Postby a.serrao » Sep 17th, '11, 22:10

entropyembrace wrote:Posting a bunch of links to scientific papers doesn´t verify your argument in and of itself. They actually need to verify your claims. None of the papers you linked to actually measured total catechin content of 1st flush sencha vs later flushes.



You're wrong.

http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bbb/62/1/175/_pdf

Table II

and look for citation number 15.

Also see: http://www.journalarchive.jst.go.jp/jnl ... =40&chr=en
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Re: A case for older (cheaper) tea?

Postby entropyembrace » Sep 17th, '11, 22:21

a.serrao wrote:
entropyembrace wrote:Posting a bunch of links to scientific papers doesn´t verify your argument in and of itself. They actually need to verify your claims. None of the papers you linked to actually measured total catechin content of 1st flush sencha vs later flushes.



You're wrong.

http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bbb/62/1/175/_pdf

Table II

and look for citation number 15.

Also see: http://www.journalarchive.jst.go.jp/jnl ... =40&chr=en


Yes I saw Table II it compares high and low grade sencha and gives no indication of what harvest they are from or what level of steaming they have. It does not back up your argument at all.
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Re: A case for older (cheaper) tea?

Postby a.serrao » Sep 17th, '11, 22:34

Last edited by a.serrao on Sep 17th, '11, 22:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A case for older (cheaper) tea?

Postby beachape » Sep 17th, '11, 22:46

Regarding Saijo et al. 1980

Figure #2 shows that the % of catechin is decreasing with time. The total amount of catechin increases per 100 shoots, however the mass of the shoots is increasing to account for the decline in % catechin.

This would suggest that younger tea has a higher % of catechin by weight.

Note: I am interpreting that paper and do not have outside knowledge of this topic.
Last edited by beachape on Sep 17th, '11, 22:54, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A case for older (cheaper) tea?

Postby AdamMY » Sep 17th, '11, 22:47

Still doesn't establish your "fact." All it merely says is the more sunlight it see's the more catechins are likely to develop, but it does not actually test ichibancha against other bancha-s. It is instead comparing it against shade grown leaves. While later flushes may be exposed to a few more hours max of sun each day, it remains to be shown that that would produce statistically different levels of Catechins.
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Re: A case for older (cheaper) tea?

Postby beachape » Sep 17th, '11, 22:57

I agree that the Venkatesh et al. paper seems to support increasing catechin with time. This seems to oppose the other study. Such is the nature of science. You can both be right and wrong at the same time.

Everyone wins...and loses. I say we all drink our tea :P
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Re: A case for older (cheaper) tea?

Postby strickmr » Sep 17th, '11, 23:22

I'm not going to involve myself entirely on this because my science involves making things blow up, not grow up. But I just wanted to say it's hilarious how argumentative everyone can get over something that was originally grown to make people calm, relaxed, and happy. Maybe you should all stop arguing about how many catechins are in what you drink and just take a minute to appreciate what you're drinking. (Aimed at a few specific people.) I joined TC because I enjoy to discuss and learn about different types of teas. Not to prove people wrong in 75% of my posts.
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Re: A case for older (cheaper) tea?

Postby puerhking » Sep 17th, '11, 23:48

woodshadows wrote:Do not take anything I say seriously.


Words to live by.
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Re: A case for older (cheaper) tea?

Postby BioHorn » Sep 18th, '11, 00:27

Wow. Whatever happened to *poof*?

H.
a tea lovin' fellow.
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Re: A case for older (cheaper) tea?

Postby a.serrao » Sep 18th, '11, 08:38

entropyembrace wrote:Yes I saw Table II it compares high and low grade sencha and gives no indication of what harvest they are from or what level of steaming they have. It does not back up your argument at all.


Don't try to make a fool out of me. Everyone knows that first grade sencha is ichibancha (the most expensive) and lowest grade sencha is nibancha or even sanbancha (the cheapest).
So the table backs up my argument very well.

From Ito.en site:
"Ichibancha has a catechin content of approximately 12-14%, while nibancha has a catechin content of approximately 14-15%. The catechin content of young shoots (first or second leaf) is higher than mature leaves (third or fourth leaf). In teas that have been grown using cover culture to block out most light, such as gyokuro, the generation of catechins is suppressed, giving such teas a lower catechin content than sencha (approximately 10% as polyphenols).

Theanine is produced in the roots of the tea bushes, and migrates to the leaves. Theanine is broken down when exposed to light, producing ethylamino, which in turn changes into catechin. Since theanine does not break down if it is not exposed to light, teas high in theanine and low in catechin may be produced by using covered culture."

See also this topic: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6449

I'm waiting for other evidences that negates what I've proposed here as scientific papers.
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Re: A case for older (cheaper) tea?

Postby Chip » Sep 18th, '11, 11:13

a.serrao wrote:
entropyembrace wrote:Yes I saw Table II it compares high and low grade sencha and gives no indication of what harvest they are from or what level of steaming they have. It does not back up your argument at all.


Don't try to make a fool out of me. Everyone knows that first grade sencha is ichibancha (the most expensive) and lowest grade sencha is nibancha or even sanbancha (the cheapest).
So the table backs up my argument very well.

Maybe, maybe not. It is not conclusive on this point.

a.serrao wrote:From Ito.en site:
"Ichibancha has a catechin content of approximately 12-14%, while nibancha has a catechin content of approximately 14-15%. The catechin content of young shoots (first or second leaf) is higher than mature leaves (third or fourth leaf). In teas that have been grown using cover culture to block out most light, such as gyokuro, the generation of catechins is suppressed, giving such teas a lower catechin content than sencha (approximately 10% as polyphenols).

Seriously, I see no reason to make a federal case over 0, 1, 2, 3%. Just drink more good sencha, put a few more leaves in ... whatever.

Bottom line, if you want to drink nibancha for an extra 0-3% (assuming this vendor is correct (and we all know from the OP we are not to trust vendors), by all means, go for it.

Drink what you want, want what you drink.


If you do drink nibancha (brewed for 10 minutes or longer with lemon added per your suggestion), I just don't know if you will ...

Like what you drink, drink what you like.


Sooooo, the question is, are you drinking nibancha???
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Re: A case for older (cheaper) tea?

Postby Chip » Sep 18th, '11, 11:51

Tead Off wrote:Chip, a word please. It seems you jump into these things way before you need to. I realize your the moderator and don't want posts to veer off in directions that get too personal, but sometimes interesting discussions can develop if you give it time and let posters go the distance.

I do NOT act hastily in such instances. I observe and keep a watch on potential hot spots, study, and after much consideration take needed action when I feel it is necessary. My initial posting was simply as a member. When I act as Moderator of the forum, I make it very clear by bolding and coloring. I do this so there is clarity in what hat I am wearing at that moment.

There are non moderated forums out there. I check them out. They are often little more than shark feeding frenzies. I do not expect 100% satisfaction when I take such an action, I realize that I cannot satisfy everyone. I just try to do what I feel is best in each situation ... after much careful observation and consideration.

I always endeavor to do the right thing, and then I then must take responsibility for my actions.

Tead Off wrote:2 posters came up with studies that refuted what Kevin said. I'm not blaming Kevin for believing what he did. Often we have wrong information until someone points out the correct information. Did you really feel that it was insulting? Was he wrong saying sometimes money and truth are not easy bedfellows? Most would agree with this statement. This is not to say Kevin has a vested interest in keeping the truth from people. The thought never occurred to this poster (me). I would love to hear from Kevin to see whether he can come up with studies showing that his statements were accurate. I want to learn, too.

Actually, he did not say "sometimes," he used the words "always be suspicious ..." TBH, it would not surprise me if this troll has a vested interest. Or did he just want to get members riled up.

Kevin can sell low grade sencha if that is where the demand is. I do not buy into the vested interest in this case at all. Kevin has stated numerous times, he inventories relatively little tea, focusing on freshness versus huge inventories. So, he can switch directions pretty easily ... if he wanted to.

We all want to learn, but nobody wants to be insulted nor vomited upon ... and really, at the end of the day, would this troll change your thinking about what tea to drink. This "pebble" sank to the bottom. Except for one poster, it is really a non issue.

If we really want, someone can post a catechin topic, and we can post test results back and forth. At the end of the day, would there be any concrete conclusions that would satisify everyone? I don't think so. I think we are years away from any concrete conclusions.
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Re: A case for older (cheaper) tea?

Postby solitude » Sep 18th, '11, 14:51

finally another topic with some action, chip please do not lock this one, hehe.

I really appreciate that citation to scientific studies are posted and discussed and not wikipedia and other sources.
Does somebody have reference to the paper(s) where the transformation of theanine to catechines are described? thanks
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Re: A case for older (cheaper) tea?

Postby a.serrao » Sep 18th, '11, 15:50

solitude wrote:finally another topic with some action, chip please do not lock this one, hehe.

I really appreciate that citation to scientific studies are posted and discussed and not wikipedia and other sources.
Does somebody have reference to the paper(s) where the transformation of theanine to catechines are described? thanks



Qui: http://www.scribd.com/doc/51630252/3/Bi ... -Catechins

Capitolo 2, Figura 3, in basso a sinistra.
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