China Cha Dao


Discussion on virtually any teaware related item.

Re: China Cha Dao

Postby britt » Nov 13th, '10, 22:25

Zensuji wrote:Its all business at the end of the day.

This isnt directed at any vendor in particular but its a real shame when a small business doesnt understand the massive impact of small gestures of good customer service does for a business.


Many of them really don't understand this. Then they wonder where all the business went. At this point in time, I do not have a negative impression of Jerry Ma. I will assume he is honest, and maybe a bit too busy to properly address some issues he has. From one of his Ebay e-mails I am under the impression that he may not even see some of the items he is selling. I know he is based in Hong Kong while the items he sells are from mainland China. I'm not sure of exactly how he operates his business but he said that someone else does his packing for him. What I ran into may not directly be his fault, but it's his name on the business so it's still his responsibility. I do, however, sympathize with the position he is in, having to rely on others.

Earlier this week I received an order from another mainland Chinese vendor which is a good example of how these vendors often miss some very simple, but key points about customer service. Of three items purchased (wall art), the largest was smashed because the outside box was smaller than the inside box the item came in. The product was the same size as the inside box. There was no room anywhere to pad this item, so even though it was double boxed, any force on the outside box would transmit directly to the fragile product. It apparently did, as four pieces of procelain were broken off.

The second item was a wood plate with double dragon carvings on it. In the product description, the pictures showed a black lacquer plate with a white background and red painted highlights on the details of the two dragons. What I received was black dragons on a bare wood background with green details. Unfortunately, the green details blend so well with the main black color that the details become invisible and the dragons become just two sillhouettes. The original red color in the pictures properly highlighted the details and they were clearly visible. It was also supposed to come with a mounted hanger, but when I went to hang it on the wall I saw that they forgot to put the hanger on or to include one with the order. When I brought these issues to the vendor's attention, their answer was that they were aware of the change but didn't have the time to take photographs of the replacement, and that they try to keep this to a minimum. In my opinion, the minimum should be zero. There is no excuse for knowingly shipping the wrong item to a customer without notifying them first.

The third item survived, so this order was not a total waste of time.

The vendor responded quickly and offered a very reasonable and convenient financial solution, but although I do appreciate this, due to their knowingly shipping a different product than what was ordered, and due to their inexperience in proper packaging, it is unlikely that I would make another purchase from them. When vendors are too busy to ship the right items then I'm too busy to fill the shopping cart and hit the "buy" button.
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Re: China Cha Dao

Postby Chip » Nov 14th, '10, 02:00

I might be missing something here ... but I always contact a seller first in the event of a problem before I would leave negative feedback. I give them an opp to resolve the issue, and they usually do.

If they do not, I have taken the next step and left negative feedback.

We are talking about peoples' businesses that they have invested possibly a lot of money in, not to mention their time, it is possibly their livelihood. If the roles were reversed, I would want an opp to resolve first.

Now if there is a negative historicity with an ebay seller that might be different. Though in that case I would likely not buy in the first place. But this does not appear to be the case in this instance ... looking at his 12 month feedback, around 1000 positives and 1 negative.

It sounds like the guy is doing a pretty outstanding job. We are all human and make mistakes.

Just sayin' ...
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Re: China Cha Dao

Postby gargoylekitty » Nov 14th, '10, 02:47

Chip wrote:I might be missing something here ... but I always contact a seller first in the event of a problem before I would leave negative feedback. I give them an opp to resolve the issue, and they usually do.


Agreed.

It's best to give them a chance to resolve any issues before leaving negative feedback. Yes, you had an issue, but that's no reason to possibly lose the person business assuming 1) you've had no prior issues with them and 2) they're likely solve the problem if you just let them know about it. As far as I know, eBay has no limits on the amount of time to leave feedback, so I wouldn't be so quick to leave a negative comment.
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Re: China Cha Dao

Postby Alex » Nov 14th, '10, 04:13

britt wrote:Jerry did contact me today and attempted to dictate the terms of the return, but without first coming to an agreement with me. I've also got the impression that the gaiwan I received is causing them some concern, maybe because it is much more expensive than the one I ordered. At this point, after reading the comments about the other side of his customer service, I intend on the return taking place on my terms, not his. He obviously would like the negative feedback removed, and I will certainly consider this but only if I feel he handles the situation in an approriate manner. He wants to issue the refund after the return and has not responded to whether he intends to cover the return shipping fees. He also wants this shipped to a USA address instead of to his own. Under the circumstances, I want the refund before I ship the gaiwan and I expect to be reimbursed for shipping costs both ways, as this is clearly his mistake.


When I was sent a wrong Gaiwan (packed by someone else) he got me to send it somewhere in the UK. I got a refund 2 days after sending it including shipping. Very good service from him.

I had a paypal case open at the time which I always open if there's a problem just to cover myself. And if things are stalling with the buyer this has always prompted a swift resolution. Jerry has always been great to me. Bar the odd mistake the only place he falls down occasionally is with emails but I've had that with him weather its post or pre sale so I don't really read to much into it. I've got him on my MSN now as well :)
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Re: China Cha Dao

Postby britt » Nov 14th, '10, 17:55

Chip wrote:I might be missing something here ... but I always contact a seller first in the event of a problem before I would leave negative feedback. I give them an opp to resolve the issue, and they usually do.

If they do not, I have taken the next step and left negative feedback.

We are talking about peoples' businesses that they have invested possibly a lot of money in, not to mention their time, it is possibly their livelihood. If the roles were reversed, I would want an opp to resolve first.

Now if there is a negative historicity with an ebay seller that might be different. Though in that case I would likely not buy in the first place. But this does not appear to be the case in this instance ... looking at his 12 month feedback, around 1000 positives and 1 negative.

It sounds like the guy is doing a pretty outstanding job. We are all human and make mistakes.

Just sayin' ...


I just signed back up for Ebay about a month ago after quitting about eight years ago. I was tired of dealing with sellers that are sloppy, careless, dishonest, and uninformed about what they sell. There were some great sellers as well, but in my opinion they were a very small minority. What I see now is pretty much the same as I saw eight years ago; a few good, knowlegable sellers and the rest careless, uninformed, just trying to make a quick buck at someone else's expense. Again, there's some great ones here but from what I've seen so far, they're still a very small group.

I rate my experience with the particular transaction and if it's negative that's what I put down. So far, since I returned to Ebay, I've only done this if I was unhappy with the order and the seller hadn't already left feedback. A valuable or collectable item shipped in a bubble envelope (I had this happen quite a few times a few years back) gets an automatic negative even if the item is undamaged. Someone selling a rare, mint condition complete game for $250 should know better than to ship it in an envelope.

You're right, this is their business and their livelihood; so let them act accordingly and not feed their families by trying to save money at their customer's expense by doing things like swapping boxes for bubble envelopes, posting pictures of a better-quality item than they're selling, etc. If my negative loses them business, I think this is what they deserve. The negative should save other buyers from repeating my mistakes with a particular seller. I'm not purchasing items from these sellers so I can return them, so I can chase a refund, or so I can figure out what to do with defective and broken items. It's their responsibility to install a quality check so their customers get what they ordered.

Honest mistakes do happen and in those cases I wouldn't normally leave a negative or I would be willing to revise it to a positive later. Even when this is done, the original negative does send a very strong message to the seller about the importance of quality control. Bad sellers could care less but the good ones, believe it or not, often thank you for bringing the issue to their attention.

This is just my personal Ebay philosophy and opinion, but I have no regrets leaving negatves for those who quickly accept my payment, don't leave feedback for me, then fail to deliver as promised. Too many sellers think holding feedback until the buyer leaves it will put them in a better bargaining position. I don't buy this at all and if anything, it will earn a seller a negative when otherwise it wouldn't have.

As for Jerry at China Cha Dao, he should assume less and read his e-mails more thoroughly. He did offer to resolve this problem and I agreed I would consider, but not promise, to change the feedback, but he never offered to replace the wrong gaiwan with the correct one and never responded as to whether he would cover the shipping costs. He also responded to my feedback by saying I had received the correct painting on the gaiwan, which is 100% false. He has now admitted this is wrong and was his mistake, but hasn't so far answered any of my questions. He seems very concerned about getting this gaiwan back quickly, making me wonder what exactly he sent me. Maybe some national treasure is hidden in this gaiwan?
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Re: China Cha Dao

Postby britt » Nov 14th, '10, 17:59

gargoylekitty wrote:
Chip wrote:I might be missing something here ... but I always contact a seller first in the event of a problem before I would leave negative feedback. I give them an opp to resolve the issue, and they usually do.


Agreed.

It's best to give them a chance to resolve any issues before leaving negative feedback. Yes, you had an issue, but that's no reason to possibly lose the person business assuming 1) you've had no prior issues with them and 2) they're likely solve the problem if you just let them know about it. As far as I know, eBay has no limits on the amount of time to leave feedback, so I wouldn't be so quick to leave a negative comment.


I gave a more thorough answer in my reply to Chip, but in summary, and in my opinion, if their business is so important to their livelihood, then they should pay more attention to the details. I'm, not on Ebay to support anyone's family; they are. I'm there to acquire something they're selling, that's it. If they do a decent job they hopefully will be able to maintain their livelihood. If not, let them drop and a better seller take their place. This is how free markets work. When too many buyers cater to bad sellers, the result is more bad sellers.
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Re: China Cha Dao

Postby britt » Nov 14th, '10, 18:05

Zensuji wrote:
britt wrote:Jerry did contact me today and attempted to dictate the terms of the return, but without first coming to an agreement with me. I've also got the impression that the gaiwan I received is causing them some concern, maybe because it is much more expensive than the one I ordered. At this point, after reading the comments about the other side of his customer service, I intend on the return taking place on my terms, not his. He obviously would like the negative feedback removed, and I will certainly consider this but only if I feel he handles the situation in an approriate manner. He wants to issue the refund after the return and has not responded to whether he intends to cover the return shipping fees. He also wants this shipped to a USA address instead of to his own. Under the circumstances, I want the refund before I ship the gaiwan and I expect to be reimbursed for shipping costs both ways, as this is clearly his mistake.


When I was sent a wrong Gaiwan (packed by someone else) he got me to send it somewhere in the UK. I got a refund 2 days after sending it including shipping. Very good service from him.

I had a paypal case open at the time which I always open if there's a problem just to cover myself. And if things are stalling with the buyer this has always prompted a swift resolution. Jerry has always been great to me. Bar the odd mistake the only place he falls down occasionally is with emails but I've had that with him weather its post or pre sale so I don't really read to much into it. I've got him on my MSN now as well :)


Thanks for the input. I know you have had good experiences with this vendor. On the first two orders so did I. This one is not yet a bad experience, but Jerry seems too busy to answer my questions about the return, covering shipping costs, and whether if I replaced this gaiwan I am likely to get the right one the next time. If he had a good sense of customer service, I think he would answer these questions in a reasonable amount of time, especially when he's asking to have the feedback changed.
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Re: China Cha Dao

Postby britt » Nov 21st, '10, 21:42

I just wanted to follow up on the last posts so others will know what to expect if they have a problem with a product purchased from this vendor. Some members have had trouble and others have had good luck, judging from the previous posts on this thread.

I notified Jerry on November 12th that the gaiwan was well-packed and ready to ship back. I also mentioned other things we needed to clarify such as whether the reimbursment will include the original and return shipping, as my receiving the wrong gaiwan was his fault.

He replied to the e-mail and said he would like it shipped to a US address, but never mentioned the reimbursment of shipping fees and didn't supply a shipping address. He asked to confirm shipping costs if I chose to ship to Hong Kong, but never supplied that address either. You usually need an address to get a correct overseas shipping quote, and I certainly need the address to ship the box within the US. I foolishly thought he would soon forward the shipping address, but he never did.

Nine days have passed since the incorrect gaiwan I received was repacked for shipping. I was more than a bit tired trying to pry information from this seller. I decided to open the package again and check out the gaiwan in more detail. I do remember that the painting was incredible, but it was the wrong gaiwan. Sometimes when you receive something you didn't expect it's better to set it aside and return to it later. When I looked at it this time, I carefully looked at everything including the painting, the caligraphy, the bottom seal, and the porcelain. It really is an incredibly good job on all counts. The lid fit is close to perfect, and it appears to me that a true master of this art painted the whole gaiwan by hand. It is meticulously painted in all areas. I brewed some Chinese green tea in it and its pour is also perfect. Overall, I concluded that I would keep this mini-masterpiece even though it's not the one I ordered.

However, due to the seller's very poor communication I will not revise the negative feedback to a positive. Another reason is that this vendor has a near-perfect feedback record, when in reality I am not the first to experience this kind of trouble. In fact, a random comment made by Jerry stated that these returns have occurred in the past so not to worry about it. Apparently those buyers who received the wrong product before either didn't leave feedback or left a positive anyway. This reduces the effectiveness of the feedback system to about zero.
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Re: China Cha Dao

Postby britt » Nov 25th, '10, 22:53

dangert wrote:
britt wrote:If you make the purchase from Ebay and you're not satisfied, immediately leave China Cha Dao or any other seller a negative feedback.


From now on this is what I am going to do. No more mister nice guy. I usually order off-Ebay to get a discount, since both PayPal and credit card company offer insurance on payments and they can be cancelled (don't know the impact on seller though, they probably don't bother to deal with a seller until several hundreds USD).

I have ordered from Jerry many times and never had any problem. The way he dealt with broken gaiwan (promising a replacement for months and finally ignoring) was really unexpected. I left it slip for too much time, until cancellation against credit card company was not possible (3 months after purchase).


Dangert, please contact Jerry again so he can rectify your problem. He asked me to request that you do so. It has been a long time but he would still like to correct the situation.

After I decided to keep the wrong gaiwan, Jerry contacted me in a very professional manner and offered a very generous resolution which I accepted. At that point he actually offered me more than I asked for. I am very confident that your problem will be resolved to your satisfaction.

As part of the deal, Jerry will be giving out free Eight Immortals gaiwans to every Tea Chat member. Just kidding about that, but serious about him wanting you to contact him.
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Re: China Cha Dao

Postby Chip » Nov 25th, '10, 23:19

... and the feedback?
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Re: China Cha Dao

Postby britt » Nov 26th, '10, 00:32

Chip wrote:... and the feedback?


I agreed to change the negative feedback to a positive and although the details of the resolution need to remain confidential between the buyer and seller, I will say that Jerry fully rectified the issues BEFORE he asked me again to consider a feedback revision. Even if I said no, the resolution was locked in place and could not be changed. This appeared to me to be a very sincere effort to show the good faith of the seller.

I am very happy to say I would not hesitate to order again from China Cha Dao. Jerry ackowledged that the initial communications were not good and apologized for the trouble I went through. These words were supported by positive actions that more than satisfied me and were considerably more than what I asked for or expected.

Jerry's willingness to address Dangert's problem after all this time was another plus. I honestly believe he will rectify that issue as well. However, Dangert does need to contact him for that to happen. I have sent him a PM on the subject.

Although many feel my feedback policy is rather harsh and unforgiving, it has actually improved my relationships with several sellers. Unfortunately it is sometimes needed to get the ball rolling.
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Re: China Cha Dao

Postby Alex » Nov 26th, '10, 04:49

Good news Britt. Glad its sorted but also glad the experience turned out good.
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Re: China Cha Dao

Postby bagua7 » Nov 26th, '10, 05:59

britt wrote:I'm not sure of exactly how he operates his business but he said that someone else does his packing for him.


Aha! I understand now why the TGY I ended up purchasing from him was so yucky when I decided to purchase it after the free sample of premium stuff he placed in a Gaiwan purchase. That premium stuff was top quality TGY unlike the purchased tea. In the end, he apologised saying that he accidentally sent me Autumn harvest when it should have been Spring, so he sent me free tea to make up the error, but still the quality didn't even come close to the free sample.

I have decided not do buy from him ever again. Sorry but once bitten twice shy.

britt wrote:What I ran into may not directly be his fault, but it's his name on the business so it's still his responsibility.


You run a business you are liable for any errors not your employees even if they stuff up.

I love Traditional Chinese Culture and deeply respect Chinese civilization and their spiritual values but I DO NOT TRUST Chinese ethics in their business practices and quality control of the products they manufacture. IMO they are too busy thinking of cashing in and as a result neglect those two areas.
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Re: China Cha Dao

Postby britt » Nov 26th, '10, 06:45

mayayo wrote:I love Traditional Chinese Culture and deeply respect Chinese civilization and their spiritual values but I DO NOT TRUST Chinese ethics in their business practices and quality control of the products they manufacture. IMO they are too busy thinking of cashing in and as a result neglect those two areas.


Very well said. In general, I certainly agree and that is why Hojo will most likely become my vendor of choice for Chinese green tea. I think they are knowlegable enough to sort through and identify these bad mainland Chinese business practices and supply us with good quality, safe tea. It's really too bad that some of us feel we need to purchase Chinese tea from a Japanese vendor, but what you stated is the reason why. So far the majority of Japanese businesses seem to be upholding their traditional high quality standards.

I have, over the last couple of months, made many purchases from China. These included teaware as well as wall art and similar cultural and decorative items. The majority of the non-teaware items were either totally junk or were high quality items damaged during shipment due to poor packaging. The quality of some items was so poor I wouldn't even use them. However, there is one thing I noticed that surprised me; the majority of vendors I have used from mainland China quickly acknowleged the validity of my complaints, responded with good customer service and offered a reasonable resolution to the problems. Some even tried to avoid the hassle of return shipping and offered full refunds for damaged items based on just e-mailing them photos. Other items that were not as described were given a choice of returning for a full refund or keeping them for half price. Although I ended up with MANY items that were either scrapped, stored because I refuse to use them, or given away because I don't like low-quality junk, at least my financial losses on these items were compensated to various degrees.

Although there are still many con-artists operating from mainland China who don't care who they rip-off or even poison so long as they can make a quick buck, what I experienced so far has shown something else. There are many businessmen in China who are honest and are trying to run legitimate businesses. They just don't have the experience to know how to do this. The one's I've had issues with seriously attempt to resolve the problems and will hopefully implement changes so these problems are reduced or eliminated in the future. It is their inexperience with choosing quality products, properly packaging items for safe shipment, etc. that is the root of their troubles. If they listen to their customers and respond appropriately, I think the future of these honest businesses will be very good. Many of these businesses are also subjected to the same unprincipled practices of dishonest suppliers that some of us have dealt with. As a customer, I will go out of my way to offer suggestions for the businesses whose mistakes are due only to inexperience and who attempt to rectify them with appropriate customer service.
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Re: China Cha Dao

Postby britt » Nov 26th, '10, 07:02

Zensuji wrote:Good news Britt. Glad its sorted but also glad the experience turned out good.


Now that this has come to a conclusion, I still thank you for recommending China Cha Dao. You had previously stated that any issues would be addressed by this vendor, and although it took some time to get to that point, the final resolution was more than satisfactory. My opinion of this vendor is still very high in spite of my initial doubts that accompanied my last order.

Comment on the "wrong" gaiwan which I have decided to keep:

This is definitely the best gaiwan that I own in spite of the fact it is not what I ordered.

Judged as a work of art, I have never seen a gaiwan that was so meticulously and perfectly painted. I may have preferred a different subject for the painting, but the fact still remains that this is a beautifully painted piece. Human subjects are the most difficult to paint on porcelain, especially where the porcelain curves, yet I can find no fault whatsoever with any part. I truly believe that this piece is 100% hand painted by a very masterful artist.

Judged as a piece of teaware, this is also the superior piece in my small collection of gaiwans. It is the thinneset, lightest one that I own and surpasses the Jingdezhen Tiger gaiwan by a significant margin in this respect. The Tiger gaiwan is still my favorite one to use but if I choose "best" over "favorite", this latest one wins. "Best" and "favorite" don't always coincide.
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