Raw Puerh Vs Green Tea


One of the intentionally aged teas, Pu-Erh has a loyal following.

Re: Raw Puerh Vs Green Tea

Postby tea-awed » Feb 25th, '11, 03:53

It is confusing isn't it? I have also heard of health benefits ascribed to young sheng. :? Claims about the bad effects of young sheng seem to be mostly associated with drinking lots of it. So maybe it's just a question of moderation?
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Re: Raw Puerh Vs Green Tea

Postby Milhouse » Feb 25th, '11, 03:56

entropyembrace,
Coke has a large amount of sugar so its clearly not going to be good for you.

If you took the time to read the basics of TCM theory you might have a better understanding of any statement about negattive effect of sheng. I posted plenty of info, take the time to read over it before you post another comment.




entropyembrace wrote:
It´s also especially vexing considering that people new to puerh looking for information are told or read that young raw puerh is undrinkable and unhealthy when they could very well end up enjoying it greatly with no ill effects.

What about all the comments against drinking shu? Being told its fishy or unhealthy does the same thing.
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Re: Raw Puerh Vs Green Tea

Postby Milhouse » Feb 25th, '11, 04:11

tea-awed wrote:It is confusing isn't it? I have also heard of health benefits ascribed to young sheng. :? Claims about the bad effects of young sheng seem to be mostly associated with drinking lots of it. So maybe it's just a question of moderation?


WY: Finally, since Master Wang, you are a master herbalist, what are some traditional Chinese medicine perspectives on Pu-Erh that deem it beneficial to the tea drinker?

MW: Good Pu-Erhs have many beneficial health benefits. The green uncooked Pu-Erhs have cooling and calming effects if consumed very diluted, as it is very potent. Over dosage can lead to adverse health consequences. This is in the spirit of the homeopathic principle of “less is more.”

In addition, Pu-Erh tea is rich in vitamins and minerals. According to Chinese medicine Pu-Erh is most effective for reducing stress and eliminating toxins from the body. The cooked Pu-Erhs are great for lowering cholesterol and uric acid reduction, improving sleep, moving one's chi to the extremities, opening meridians, preventing blockage and aids digestion. Aged teas both from cooked or uncooked Pu-Erhs are effective for reducing headaches, lowering high blood pressure, and are all good anti-oxidants. There is good cholesterol and bad cholesterol. Similarly, there is good caffeine and bad caffeine. Fine Pu-Erh teas have good caffeine. It stimulates the nervous system and opens all channels, but you can sleep well after drinking it!
http://www.teance.com/category_s/109.htm
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Re: Raw Puerh Vs Green Tea

Postby entropyembrace » Feb 25th, '11, 05:02

Milhouse wrote:Coke has a large amount of sugar so its clearly not going to be good for you.

If you took the time to read the basics of TCM theory you might have a better understanding of any statement about negattive effect of sheng. I posted plenty of info, take the time to read over it before you post another comment.




entropyembrace wrote:
It´s also especially vexing considering that people new to puerh looking for information are told or read that young raw puerh is undrinkable and unhealthy when they could very well end up enjoying it greatly with no ill effects.

What about all the comments against drinking shu? Being told its fishy or unhealthy does the same thing.


Before I get into the rest...most comments against shu that I see are specifically directed against what most western vendors typically sell as pu-erh, which is of unknown origen and typically tastes horrid. The advice I see given over and over again is to drink shu from reputable factories such as Menghai Dayi rather than to avoid shu entirely. I don´t think the comparison you made is particularily valid.

I have read what you posted, included the websites which you linked to...they do not offer any evidence to support their claims. And they are filled with exceptions and make it clear that determining the TCM properties of anything is rather arbitrary....for example one page you linked to http://www.acupuncture.com/nutrition/diettcm.htm says :

But the way food is prepared also affects the amount of Yang or Yin energy it has. Frying tends to increase Yang, and steaming tends to increase Yin....Food which is served cooked and warm are more warming than foods which are raw and cold. For example, celery which is cooked in a stir-fried dish which is served warm is going to be more warming and more Yang than celery served raw in a cold salad.


You say young sheng is very cooling because it´s bitter, but it´s also prepared hot and drank while still warm...or in the case of slurpers while still quite hot. How much does that mitigate the cooling effect of the bitterness? Rather arbitrary isn´t it?

It can also be outright contradictory

Balance Yang Deficiency with herbs and foods rich in Yang energy. Eat more Yang foods during the winter, the most Yin time of the year, and eat more Yin foods during the summer, the most Yang time of the year. But sometimes, it's appropriate to be in tune with the season - eating Yin foods during the winter and Yang foods during the summer.


I´m also seeing an inconsistancy in what you are saying...presumably aged sheng is more warming than young sheng...and you talk about different tastes having different properties. Supposedly aged sheng is warming or at least less cooling than young sheng because it tends to be more sweet and less bitter but the website you linked to says that bitter is drying and cooling and that sweet is.....moistening and cooling...that´s right cooling hmmmmmmm... :?: Who isn´t reading or doesn´t understand what they are saying? :roll:

But to cut down to the real core of things...I have set to see how within the context of TCM that:

a) Most people tend towards "cold" imbalance and thus should avoid consuming large quanitities of "cooling" foods and beverages. Why are we more concerned in general about excessive "cooling" as opposed to excessive "warming"?

b) Why exactly is young sheng puerh more cooling than aged sheng puerh?

c) What exactly are the mysterious dangers of drinking young sheng?

Also I have never seen any evidence given to support the foundations of TCM. They are simply given as a set of facts...often in a contradictory manner with many exceptions and then used by people like you to make broad claims about the health benefits or risks of various things with absolutely no evidence to back up your assertions or even a clear explanation of what your reasoning is.

MW: Good Pu-Erhs have many beneficial health benefits. The green uncooked Pu-Erhs have cooling and calming effects if consumed very diluted, as it is very potent. Over dosage can lead to adverse health consequences. This is in the spirit of the homeopathic principle of “less is more.”

In addition, Pu-Erh tea is rich in vitamins and minerals. According to Chinese medicine Pu-Erh is most effective for reducing stress and eliminating toxins from the body. The cooked Pu-Erhs are great for lowering cholesterol and uric acid reduction, improving sleep, moving one's chi to the extremities, opening meridians, preventing blockage and aids digestion. Aged teas both from cooked or uncooked Pu-Erhs are effective for reducing headaches, lowering high blood pressure, and are all good anti-oxidants. There is good cholesterol and bad cholesterol. Similarly, there is good caffeine and bad caffeine. Fine Pu-Erh teas have good caffeine. It stimulates the nervous system and opens all channels, but you can sleep well after drinking it!


I find it funny that you claim young sheng puerh should be drunk diluted because it is very potent...aged sheng puerh is also very potent! Unless what you´re drinking was stored at <10% RH in an air conditioned house? :roll: :lol:

Also interesting that the health benefits you attribute to shu and aged sheng according to TCM are a mixture of things which come from mystical medicine, presumably TCM (opened channels, moving chi), supposed cures for mild ailments (headaches, stress) and western medicine (cholesterol reduction and a source of anti-oxidants). Which in the case of health benefits derived from western medicine (which you attributed to TCM) are also accociated with other types of tea including sheng puerh and green tea.

And....good and bad caffiene? :roll: :lol: Seriously?

fyi this is the one and only caffiene molecule
Image
there is no other and thus there cannot be "good" and "bad" caffiene.

Cholesterol on the other hand is a name for a group of molecules with slight variations in molecular structure and thus various effects in your body depending on specifically which Cholesterol is being considered...which is why there can be "good" and "bad" cholesterol.

and your source is a tea vendor...nice...and American one at that. :roll:

Perhaps you should find a genuine TCM practitioner to quote specifically on this subject....perhaps he or she could give at least a coherent answer.

Quoting tea vendors and new age health sites isn´t producing a coherent answer nevermind a convinving one.
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Re: Raw Puerh Vs Green Tea

Postby tea-awed » Feb 25th, '11, 06:08

Milhouse
Thank you for the most interesting and informative link.
I know very little about TCM but my thought is that perhaps it is trying in it's way to explain a phenomena that has been observed over perhaps centuries. That is that continual drinking of young sheng can lead to certain health problems. I love young sheng but now keep an eye on how much I drink and how often. Moderation is always the best policy. Besides there are so many great oolongs to drink too. :)
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Re: Raw Puerh Vs Green Tea

Postby ChinesePottery » Feb 25th, '11, 07:17

Hi there,

entropyembrace wrote:And....good and bad caffiene? :roll: :lol: Seriously?

fyi this is the one and only caffiene molecule
Image
there is no other and thus there cannot be "good" and "bad" caffiene.


I don't want to say much about the main topic, but for this particular point about the caffeine I feel I should...

as far as i know there is indeed only one caffeine molecule, however the way it is bound can differ greatly and hence its effects on the human body.

In coffee the caffeine is linked to a potassium chlorogenate molecular complex (see here: http://www.scopus.com/record/display.url?eid=2-s2.0-46149131824&origin=inward&txGid=p4_HoumyuDKRqYdQaGqRDLB%3a2) and when in contact with stomach acid it is released swiftly whilst in tea it is linked to poly-phenols which causes the caffeine to be released later and slower in the intestine. The caffeine-effect starts later after consumption and lasts longer this way.

PS. sorry to be such a know-it-all
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Re: Raw Puerh Vs Green Tea

Postby TomVerlain » Feb 25th, '11, 11:37

mmmmmm potassium chlorogenate molecular complex ... mmmmm :wink:
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Re: Raw Puerh Vs Green Tea

Postby gingkoseto » Feb 25th, '11, 11:49

It's off the original topic. But after reading this discussion, my reflection is, it's nearly impossible to explain Chinese traditional medical theory in logic of western science. Unlike western medicine, which is based on anatomy and lab experiments, Chinese medicine rooted from philosophy and practical experience. Most Chinese medical theories were not built on lab research. It's a good thing that many of them are confirmed by modern science. But very often the confirmation comes far behind how much the theories have already done in medical practice. Many theories are not confirmed by modern science and probably will be when science is more advanced. And there are some pseudo-theories that were formed due to misunderstandings.

Back to the original topic, it's never a "theory" that young sheng is unhealthy. It has been explained by some previous posts on this thread that young sheng is unhealthy to people who have weaker stomach (I believe this can be easily proved by Western science if anybody cares to establish a clinical study). Also as explained in some previous posts that young sheng is very healthy and tonic to people who need its help in digestion, cooling power or other aspects. Also I guess young sheng must be healthy too most Yunnan people and many Northwestern ethnic groups in China, because they don't age most of their puerh, and seem to have benefit, instead of suffering, from it over generations.

No traditional medicine book has said sheng puerh is "unhealthy". It's against the basic philosophy of Chinese medicine to say something is absolutely unhealthy to all people. If person A says sheng is unhealthy to himself and person B says sheng is perfectly healthy, there is basically nothing to argue between the two, because both Chinese and Western medical theories have to agree that people are different :mrgreen:
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Re: Raw Puerh Vs Green Tea

Postby AdamMY » Feb 25th, '11, 12:18

gingkoseto wrote:Back to the original topic, it's never a "theory" that young sheng is unhealthy. It has been explained by some previous posts on this thread that young sheng is unhealthy to people who have weaker stomach (I believe this can be easily proved by Western science if anybody cares to establish a clinical study). Also as explained in some previous posts that young sheng is very healthy and tonic to people who need its help in digestion, cooling power or other aspects. Also I guess young sheng must be healthy too most Yunnan people and many Northwestern ethnic groups in China, because they don't age most of their puerh, and seem to have benefit, instead of suffering, from it over generations.


I think you hit the nail on the head, Young Puerh should not be consumed by those that have a problem with it, namely a weak stomach, which mind you are likely also the people who have problems with strong undiluted black tea.

But isn't something similar true for everyone with something. I mean You eat/drink enough things you learn that something just do not agree with your body. But the point I think Entropy is trying to make is just because a handful of people have problems with Young Sheng does not mean we should write off the entire set of tea as Unhealthy (when there is no real merit behind saying so). Because then for the same reason you would have to write off just about all types of teas as I am sure for any type of tea we can find people that have problems with that particular type. Again I am not saying there is no fact behind anything TCM says, I am just saying, in my understanding TCM is tailored to the person under discussion and that actually these large general claims for everyone make no sense.

About Shu being unhealthy, has more to do with how it is made. Shu can be perfectly healthy and interesting when made in a controlled environment. The problem is when you get small producers who cut corners or do some really weird and unhealthy stuff. (I believe I've heard something, not sure if it is true or not, about some shu being made by people digging holes in the ground filling them up with tea leaves, covering them and returning later to open up the hole and take out the freshly made "shu".)
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Re: Raw Puerh Vs Green Tea

Postby entropyembrace » Feb 25th, '11, 15:57

ChinesePottery wrote:Hi there,

entropyembrace wrote:And....good and bad caffiene? :roll: :lol: Seriously?

fyi this is the one and only caffiene molecule
Image
there is no other and thus there cannot be "good" and "bad" caffiene.


I don't want to say much about the main topic, but for this particular point about the caffeine I feel I should...

as far as i know there is indeed only one caffeine molecule, however the way it is bound can differ greatly and hence its effects on the human body.

In coffee the caffeine is linked to a potassium chlorogenate molecular complex (see here: http://www.scopus.com/record/display.url?eid=2-s2.0-46149131824&origin=inward&txGid=p4_HoumyuDKRqYdQaGqRDLB%3a2) and when in contact with stomach acid it is released swiftly whilst in tea it is linked to poly-phenols which causes the caffeine to be released later and slower in the intestine. The caffeine-effect starts later after consumption and lasts longer this way.

PS. sorry to be such a know-it-all


potassium chlorogenate is a polyphenol, this is not a different phenomenon from polyphenol bonding to caffiene in tea.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... archtype=a
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Re: Raw Puerh Vs Green Tea

Postby entropyembrace » Feb 25th, '11, 16:07

AdamMY wrote:I think you hit the nail on the head, Young Puerh should not be consumed by those that have a problem with it, namely a weak stomach, which mind you are likely also the people who have problems with strong undiluted black tea.

But isn't something similar true for everyone with something. I mean You eat/drink enough things you learn that something just do not agree with your body. But the point I think Entropy is trying to make is just because a handful of people have problems with Young Sheng does not mean we should write off the entire set of tea as Unhealthy (when there is no real merit behind saying so). Because then for the same reason you would have to write off just about all types of teas as I am sure for any type of tea we can find people that have problems with that particular type. Again I am not saying there is no fact behind anything TCM says, I am just saying, in my understanding TCM is tailored to the person under discussion and that actually these large general claims for everyone make no sense.



Yes, thank you Adam this is the point I´ve been trying to make.

Any tea can potentially cause stomach problems, that´s a result of the caffiene and other stimulants present. Personally I cannot drink any tea on an empty stomach without a lot of stomach upset...some teas are harder to handle than others. I do not find aged sheng to be any easier than young sheng...in fact depending on how it was stored aged sheng can be more difficult for me to stomach. :roll: Roasted oolongs and shu puerh are by far the easiest for my body.
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Re: Raw Puerh Vs Green Tea

Postby wyardley » Feb 25th, '11, 16:18

entropyembrace wrote:I do not find aged sheng to be any easier than young sheng...in fact depending on how it was stored aged sheng can be more difficult for me to stomach. :roll: Roasted oolongs and shu puerh are by far the easiest for my body.

What do you mean by "aged"?

I find sheng that are, say, 40 years or more old, are very easy on the stomach in much the way that shu is. However, most of us cannot drink these kinds of teas on a day to day basis, so unless you're a lot luckier than I am, I would kind of question your qualifications to make this statement.

Also, many aged teas and ripe teas can be especially "cleansing", but I think most would consider that a benefit to the stomach, not a problem.
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Re: Raw Puerh Vs Green Tea

Postby entropyembrace » Feb 25th, '11, 16:46

wyardley wrote:
entropyembrace wrote:I do not find aged sheng to be any easier than young sheng...in fact depending on how it was stored aged sheng can be more difficult for me to stomach. :roll: Roasted oolongs and shu puerh are by far the easiest for my body.

What do you mean by "aged"?

I find sheng that are, say, 40 years or more old, are very easy on the stomach in much the way that shu is. However, most of us cannot drink these kinds of teas on a day to day basis, so unless you're a lot luckier than I am, I would kind of question your qualifications to make this statement.

Also, many aged teas and ripe teas can be especially "cleansing", but I think most would consider that a benefit to the stomach, not a problem.


30 years is about the oldest I can ever afford to drink at all :lol:

I still find sheng in this age range to typically be very stimulating even though the flavours have mellowed out a lot...it really isn´t like drinking shu. I don´t see how another decade could turn it into shu.

By stimulating I´m talking about caffiene...which has the unpleasant effect of stimulating stomach acid production...which on an empty stomach is not a pleasant experience for me. Caffiene is fairly stable and I haven´t seen anything to indicate that it would decompose in large quantities during pu-erh aging except perhaps in very wet storage where there is a lot of biological activity.

The comment about how it was stored is referring to storage that encourages the growth of mold which often causes problems for me. I find the aroma rather unpleasant but it´s the airway restriction that stomach cramps that really keep me away...This has to do with my sensitivity or allergy to mold and I don´t generalize it and say wet stored sheng is unhealthy and can cause serious health consequences if you drink too much of it. :roll:
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Re: Raw Puerh Vs Green Tea

Postby David R. » Feb 25th, '11, 17:55

I don't have stomach problems with any kind of puerh, but a friend of mine cannot drink anything younger than 3 years old puerh without big stomach aches. In the end, it may even have become psychosomatic.

For myself, only wuyi yan cha gives me the impression that some tiny humans are drilling into my empty stomach... :lol:
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Re: Raw Puerh Vs Green Tea

Postby Milhouse » Feb 25th, '11, 18:42

Gingkose... wrote:

Back to the original topic, it's never a "theory" that young sheng is unhealthy. It has been explained by some previous posts on this thread that young sheng is unhealthy to people who have weaker stomach (I believe this can be easily proved by Western science if anybody cares to establish a clinical study). Also as explained in some previous posts that young sheng is very healthy and tonic to people who need its help in digestion, cooling power or other aspects. Also I guess young sheng must be healthy too most Yunnan people and many Northwestern ethnic groups in China, because they don't age most of their puerh, and seem to have benefit, instead of suffering, from it over generations.

No traditional medicine book has said sheng puerh is "unhealthy". It's against the basic philosophy of Chinese medicine to say something is absolutely unhealthy to all people. If person A says sheng is unhealthy to himself and person B says sheng is perfectly healthy, there is basically nothing to argue between the two, because both Chinese and Western medical theories have to agree that people are different :mrgreen:

I also agree that it can't be deemed completely unhealthy but it should be noted that due to its overly cold nature it has a higher chance of unpleasantness compared to something warmer or closer to neutral.

Person A - drinks sheng and ends up feeling completely miserable so he give up drinking it because he assumes it doesn't agree with him.

Person B - drinks it and feels sick too but since he has an understanding of basic Chinese medicine he factors in his diet, season etc. and realizes his body is too cold at the moment to drink it so he waits and tries it again when hes sitting on the beach only to find that its pleasant to drink.

I'm sure a lot of people would have told person A that it was probably poorly stored tea, low quality, fake or that they shouldn't drink it.
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