When do the "green" tastes of sheng fade away?


One of the intentionally aged teas, Pu-Erh has a loyal following.

Re: When do the "green" tastes of sheng fade away?

Postby gasninja » May 28th, '12, 09:24

TwoDog2 wrote:
gasninja wrote:I personally am of the opinion that cakes stored in dry climates lile kunming or virtually anywhere in the u.s. will never. Turn into what we currently think of as aged pu-ERH. I have had twenty year old tea that( other than subtle diffences ) I would not have been surprised if I had been told it was a five year old tea.



Interesting opinion! What are you opinions of indoor humidity control? Something like setting aside a temp controlled room with a fair amount of humidity, added via a humidifier or bowls of water? I think the location of the storage is not that important, if the conditions are controlled. You can make an artificially dry/hot/cold/humid environment as you please, if you just set up the right conditions.

Well that's what I'm hoping will have at least some success. But I also try to by 8-12 yr old cakes that have already been through traditional storage.
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Re: When do the "green" tastes of sheng fade away?

Postby gingkoseto » May 28th, '12, 14:38

gasninja wrote:
Then it will be helpful to specify definitions of "we" and "aged puerh"
:mrgreen:

Definitions
Aged -all the classic aged cakes up to the but not including 88 Qing bing. Or cakes that are starting to have similarities to these in flavor mouthfeel and thickness
We -people who have drank these teas or any traditionally stored pu-erh over fifteen years old.

So basically "we" doesn't include people who tasted humid aged old tea but prefer dry-aged tea, or people who prefer humid aged tea but didn't taste tea before 88 Qing. And the aged tea as defined by "we" is any tea that tasted similar to "traditional stored" old tea.

That's why I asked for definitions. When there are definitions, it's easy for people to see each other's point and agree with each other. With these definitions, I do agree with you that dry-stored sheng can hardly become similar to "aged tea" by the above definition, and it's probably not a matter of time.
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Re: When do the "green" tastes of sheng fade away?

Postby TwoDog2 » May 29th, '12, 02:04

gasninja wrote: Well that's what I'm hoping will have at least some success. But I also try to by 8-12 yr old cakes that have already been through traditional storage.



Me too, and from my experience, it has plenty of success. I have had some kunming stored (and even partial Beijing stored, but in nice conditions) puers from the early 2000's that I think are developing very well. They are not really headed in the wet (see:traditional) storage direction, but there are aging and have beautiful and changing complex flavors. Also, if the drinker wanted that, i believe upping the humidity/heat would do the trick. I have never tried temperature control, but I assume if you tried to mimic the conditions you wanted, it wouldn't much matter where the storage location is geographically. Who knows though...so many factors
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Re: When do the "green" tastes of sheng fade away?

Postby shah82 » May 29th, '12, 02:19

With the dawg.

Kunming is just fine to my taste. I do think the cakes age pretty well there. I think the issue has always been that Kunming merchants never did a great job with their warehousing. Badly stored cakes in dry areas fade and gets rough and unpleasant. In any event, the well-stored cakes do mellow and become easier to drink, while retaining far more complexity in taste and aroma than anything especially wet. My Kunming cakes are doing quite well, "recovering" from their storage.

I've always appreciated Houde's early 2k cakes, because most of them have had a quickie in the Taiwan warehouse to get them started, but with very little damage. 2001 simplified, 2003 HK 7542 and Bulang special production, their Changtai cakes (the ones that are good, like the 2003 Yibang and 2004 JingGu). A most excellent compromise.
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Re: When do the "green" tastes of sheng fade away?

Postby gasninja » May 29th, '12, 09:39

gingkoseto wrote:
gasninja wrote:
Then it will be helpful to specify definitions of "we" and "aged puerh"
:mrgreen:

Definitions
Aged -all the classic aged cakes up to the but not including 88 Qing bing. Or cakes that are starting to have similarities to these in flavor mouthfeel and thickness
We -people who have drank these teas or any traditionally stored pu-erh over fifteen years old.

So basically "we" doesn't include people who tasted humid aged old tea but prefer dry-aged tea, or people who prefer humid aged tea but didn't taste tea before 88 Qing. And the aged tea as defined by "we" is any tea that tasted similar to "traditional stored" old tea.

That's why I asked for definitions. When there are definitions, it's easy for people to see each other's point and agree with each other. With these definitions, I do agree with you that dry-stored sheng can hardly become similar to "aged tea" by the above definition, and it's probably not a matter of time.
The 88 Qing was really the first famous dry stored cake. But That tea was still stored in humid hot Hong Kong. I think that it will take allot longer for kunming or Beijing stored tea s to get to that level of maturity
I can appreciate dry storage teas. Yesterday I drank a 92 xiaguan brick that was dry stored. It was very flavorful and had powerful qi but I think the tea would have been greatly improved by some humidity. Where as an ancient tree cake of this age ( of which there are few) might be better dry stored. I was just saying that I feel what pops into most peoples head when they think of aged pu-erh is the taste of a tea that has been stored in at least in a humid environment ( H K ,Taiwan, Gaozhou , Nanning ,Xishuangbana) but more likely a tea that has been through the traditional storage process. Now maybe this will change as most pu-erh 20 years ago was stored in a humid part of Asia. Now it is stored all over china and all over the world. It is kind of an experiment. One that we won't know the results of for at least ten more years. Unless any one around here can tell us what an 80 s Kunming stored 7542 tastes like.
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Re: When do the "green" tastes of sheng fade away?

Postby TwoDog2 » May 30th, '12, 02:31

gasninja wrote:I think that it will take allot longer for kunming or Beijing stored tea s to get to that level of maturity


No doubt. I think most people who are making an effort to store cakes well in Beijing and Kunming keep them in a very humid room/space because it is just so dry.

I have had some cakes that have been stored in Kunming and Beijing that you could easily mistake for 5 years younger than they are. The change can be painfully slow, if you don't take measures to add some moisture to the air.
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Re: When do the "green" tastes of sheng fade away?

Postby gingkoseto » May 30th, '12, 10:35

TwoDog2 wrote:No doubt. I think most people who are making an effort to store cakes well in Beijing and Kunming keep them in a very humid room/space because it is just so dry.

I can't imagine there is serious puerh storage in Beijing, if not for the climate, just for the estate price there. I thought the humidifiers used in Beijing are for people, not for tea :mrgreen:

In terms of climate conditions, the distance between Beijing and Kunming are not within one sentence, not within one paragraph, or probably not within one chapter :wink: I don't know how many people in Kunming use humidifier either for people or for tea. To me, a wind-dried Northerner, humidifier in Kunming sounds an odd idea. :P
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Re: When do the "green" tastes of sheng fade away?

Postby gingkoseto » May 30th, '12, 10:45

gasninja wrote:The 88 Qing was really the first famous dry stored cake. But That tea was still stored in humid hot Hong Kong. I think that it will take allot longer for kunming or Beijing stored tea s to get to that level of maturity

I think what we agree is, storage in Hong Kong could be of various styles, such as the "traditional" style, or the "dryer/88 qing" style. What we disagree is, I don't think the difference between Kunming storage and Hong Kong storage can be converged by time. I think they just head for different directions, just like we can't say shu is a fast way to get old sheng.
But why Beijing is mentioned anyway? I thought the last time larger (actually not sure if it was really large) scale storage happened in Beijing was before the Qing emperor was kicked out of his palace :mrgreen:
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Re: When do the "green" tastes of sheng fade away?

Postby TwoDog2 » May 31st, '12, 05:16

gingkoseto wrote: To me, a wind-dried Northerner, humidifier in Kunming sounds an odd idea. :P



I think some people must use humidifiers there, it is so dry! This spring, I met a vendor there who has a gigantic ceramic pot (maybe 15-30 gallons? I am bad at guessing...) that contained some fish and a whole lot of water, in the center of her storage space. I went to visit her early in the morning, and she came in with a huge bucket of water, to fill the pot. I asked her how long she had kept the fish there and she said, "Although the fish are pretty, I really keep this here because i want to keep the humidity up in the room." Anecdotal, I know, but at least some people are considering it.
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Re: When do the "green" tastes of sheng fade away?

Postby yanom » Jun 23rd, '12, 12:13

Could anyone help me understand a bit more about ageing and storage please?
When I think about how pu'er was stored in the past in, say, Hong Kong, I think of 30 degrees temperature and high (80%+) humidity.
First, is that correct? Second, how long would tea be stored in those conditions? Third, if indeed it would move to different conditions after a number of years, how would those secondary storage conditions compare to the temperature and humidity levels of the primary storage? Thanks :D
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Re: When do the "green" tastes of sheng fade away?

Postby apache » Jun 23rd, '12, 16:20

yanom wrote:Could anyone help me understand a bit more about ageing and storage please?
When I think about how pu'er was stored in the past in, say, Hong Kong, I think of 30 degrees temperature and high (80%+) humidity.
First, is that correct? Second, how long would tea be stored in those conditions? Third, if indeed it would move to different conditions after a number of years, how would those secondary storage conditions compare to the temperature and humidity levels of the primary storage? Thanks :D


I hope someone more knowledgeable than me would answer your questions. Here is just some of my thought. I just saw Cloud wrote this:

http://www.discuss.com.hk/viewthread.php?tid=14309899&extra=&page=17
I think the ideal condition is 70% RH and mid 20 C. Around 80% or above RH for any prolong period will increase risk of mold growth.

For high RH and high temperature storage, this only can be carried out by experienced tea traders and I'm afraid I know very little about this 'dark art'. And my guess is this kind of wet storage is no more than couple of years during which they have to move teas around inside storage to make sure it is evenly stored, after that cakes need to store in much dryer condition for a rather long period of time (10 years?) to get rid of the storage tastes.

For home storage:
http://www.discuss.com.hk/viewthread.php?tid=14309899&extra=&page=16
Cloud seems to suggest to store them inside cardboard boxes on the top self.
This make sense, as more likely you got warmer air on top and cardboard boxes is a very good mediator for RH as well as keeping the cakes from sun light.
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Re: When do the "green" tastes of sheng fade away?

Postby gasninja » Jun 24th, '12, 23:57

If you want to know about HK storage read Art of tea issue 9.
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Re: When do the "green" tastes of sheng fade away?

Postby yanom » Jun 25th, '12, 04:22

Wish I could find a copy.

Strange: I consider myself pretty competent at using the internet but it's impossible to get firm answers, I guess because no-one active in the English-speaking internet world has stored pu'er for more than 15 years?
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Re: When do the "green" tastes of sheng fade away?

Postby apache » Jun 25th, '12, 08:53

yanom wrote:Strange: I consider myself pretty competent at using the internet but it's impossible to get firm answers, I guess because no-one active in the English-speaking internet world has stored pu'er for more than 15 years?


Dare I say it should be virtually no one outside HK or southeast asia has stored pu for more than 10 years.
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Re: When do the "green" tastes of sheng fade away?

Postby JRS22 » Jun 25th, '12, 08:57

yanom wrote:Wish I could find a copy.


http://www.tearoma.us/
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