Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!


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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby needaTEAcher » Dec 17th, '12, 09:06

bagua7 wrote:
Tead Off wrote:Didn't I read somewhere that there are wheel thrown Yixing pots being made now?


I asked the same question to Chinese Pottery, who used to live in Yixing and married to the daughter of a potter, and he said NO, there is o such a thing as wheel-thrown Yixings. Besides the smell of my Shui Ping when I pour hot water in it is very different to Yixing clay pots; less pronounced but with particular metallic odour.


In my experience, the answer that something does exist is usually more likely to be accurate than the answer that something does not at all exist. This is doubly so in China. There are soooooo many potters in Yixing, many of them from other areas, doing non-traditional work. Just my two cents, since I have never seen a zisha pot that I could tell was wheel thrown.

Edit to add: I just remembered a store in Seoul that sells zisha made in Taiwan that, thinking back on it, seemed wheel thrown. Not confirmed, and based on fuzzy memory.
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby MarshalN » Dec 17th, '12, 09:30

needaTEAcher wrote:
bagua7 wrote:
Tead Off wrote:Didn't I read somewhere that there are wheel thrown Yixing pots being made now?


I asked the same question to Chinese Pottery, who used to live in Yixing and married to the daughter of a potter, and he said NO, there is o such a thing as wheel-thrown Yixings. Besides the smell of my Shui Ping when I pour hot water in it is very different to Yixing clay pots; less pronounced but with particular metallic odour.


In my experience, the answer that something does exist is usually more likely to be accurate than the answer that something does not at all exist. This is doubly so in China. There are soooooo many potters in Yixing, many of them from other areas, doing non-traditional work. Just my two cents, since I have never seen a zisha pot that I could tell was wheel thrown.

Edit to add: I just remembered a store in Seoul that sells zisha made in Taiwan that, thinking back on it, seemed wheel thrown. Not confirmed, and based on fuzzy memory.


The Taiwan stuff is not made with Yixing clay, so they're not Yixing pots. Yixing clay as normally prepared are not conducive to being thrown on a wheel for obvious reasons.
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby needaTEAcher » Dec 17th, '12, 22:02

So nothing made in Taiwan is ever Yixing clay? Not one single artist in one single studio in Taiwan has ever worked with Yixing clay and found a way to adapt it to a wheel?
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby TIM » Dec 17th, '12, 22:54

needaTEAcher wrote:So nothing made in Taiwan is ever Yixing clay? Not one single artist in one single studio in Taiwan has ever worked with Yixing clay and found a way to adapt it to a wheel?


If its made in Taiwan, and thrown, why would it be labeled as Yixing?
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby MarshalN » Dec 18th, '12, 00:24

needaTEAcher wrote:So nothing made in Taiwan is ever Yixing clay? Not one single artist in one single studio in Taiwan has ever worked with Yixing clay and found a way to adapt it to a wheel?


Yixing clay does make its way to Taiwan, but you said wheel-thrown Taiwan pots, and those are most definitely not Yixing. They just look similar, sort of.

Even if they adapted it to the wheel, somehow, the resulting ware is not going to be the same as traditional Yixing ware.
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby Tead Off » Dec 18th, '12, 01:08

MarshalN wrote:
needaTEAcher wrote:So nothing made in Taiwan is ever Yixing clay? Not one single artist in one single studio in Taiwan has ever worked with Yixing clay and found a way to adapt it to a wheel?


Yixing clay does make its way to Taiwan, but you said wheel-thrown Taiwan pots, and those are most definitely not Yixing. They just look similar, sort of.

Even if they adapted it to the wheel, somehow, the resulting ware is not going to be the same as traditional Yixing ware.

Yes, if we're talking traditional, it will not be the same if wheel thrown. But, if a Chinese is born in America, is he still not Chinese? :D
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby MarshalN » Dec 18th, '12, 12:35

Tead Off wrote:
MarshalN wrote:
needaTEAcher wrote:So nothing made in Taiwan is ever Yixing clay? Not one single artist in one single studio in Taiwan has ever worked with Yixing clay and found a way to adapt it to a wheel?


Yixing clay does make its way to Taiwan, but you said wheel-thrown Taiwan pots, and those are most definitely not Yixing. They just look similar, sort of.

Even if they adapted it to the wheel, somehow, the resulting ware is not going to be the same as traditional Yixing ware.

Yes, if we're talking traditional, it will not be the same if wheel thrown. But, if a Chinese is born in America, is he still not Chinese? :D


But if you want your Chinese to speak Chinese and think like Chinese, then for that purpose, that person is not Chinese!
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby Tead Off » Dec 18th, '12, 13:07

MarshalN wrote:
Tead Off wrote:
MarshalN wrote:
needaTEAcher wrote:So nothing made in Taiwan is ever Yixing clay? Not one single artist in one single studio in Taiwan has ever worked with Yixing clay and found a way to adapt it to a wheel?


Yixing clay does make its way to Taiwan, but you said wheel-thrown Taiwan pots, and those are most definitely not Yixing. They just look similar, sort of.

Even if they adapted it to the wheel, somehow, the resulting ware is not going to be the same as traditional Yixing ware.

Yes, if we're talking traditional, it will not be the same if wheel thrown. But, if a Chinese is born in America, is he still not Chinese? :D


But if you want your Chinese to speak Chinese and think like Chinese, then for that purpose, that person is not Chinese!

But, many American born Chinese do speak Chinese and do inherit the cultural thinking.

Are you saying the Yixing pots made in Taiwan don't think in Chinese? :D
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby TIM » Dec 18th, '12, 13:23

Tead Off wrote:
MarshalN wrote:
Tead Off wrote:
MarshalN wrote:
needaTEAcher wrote:So nothing made in Taiwan is ever Yixing clay? Not one single artist in one single studio in Taiwan has ever worked with Yixing clay and found a way to adapt it to a wheel?


Yixing clay does make its way to Taiwan, but you said wheel-thrown Taiwan pots, and those are most definitely not Yixing. They just look similar, sort of.

Even if they adapted it to the wheel, somehow, the resulting ware is not going to be the same as traditional Yixing ware.

Yes, if we're talking traditional, it will not be the same if wheel thrown. But, if a Chinese is born in America, is he still not Chinese? :D


But if you want your Chinese to speak Chinese and think like Chinese, then for that purpose, that person is not Chinese!

But, many American born Chinese do speak Chinese and do inherit the cultural thinking.

Are you saying the Yixing pots made in Taiwan don't think in Chinese? :D


It is one thing to have a silly joke. Its something else if you have a Cultural foolish joke. I hope you understand this TO. Merry Christmas to you too.
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby MarshalN » Dec 18th, '12, 14:28

Tead Off wrote:
MarshalN wrote:
Tead Off wrote:
MarshalN wrote:
needaTEAcher wrote:So nothing made in Taiwan is ever Yixing clay? Not one single artist in one single studio in Taiwan has ever worked with Yixing clay and found a way to adapt it to a wheel?


Yixing clay does make its way to Taiwan, but you said wheel-thrown Taiwan pots, and those are most definitely not Yixing. They just look similar, sort of.

Even if they adapted it to the wheel, somehow, the resulting ware is not going to be the same as traditional Yixing ware.

Yes, if we're talking traditional, it will not be the same if wheel thrown. But, if a Chinese is born in America, is he still not Chinese? :D


But if you want your Chinese to speak Chinese and think like Chinese, then for that purpose, that person is not Chinese!

But, many American born Chinese do speak Chinese and do inherit the cultural thinking.

Are you saying the Yixing pots made in Taiwan don't think in Chinese? :D


Since you didn't get it the first time - if the Yixing clay is processed and made in such a way that is radically different from the original, can we still call it a Yixing? I don't think so, not if you are looking for those qualities.

Same reason why we can't just call any sparkling wine "Champagne". If you think it's ok to do so, I've got some Laobanzhang to sell you.
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby needaTEAcher » Dec 18th, '12, 22:36

Interesting. Actually, the shop I am thinking of sells horrible and expensive tea, and I always thought their teapots weren't really zisha. But after reading some stuff on zisha in Taiwan, and the earlier bits about wheel thrown zisha, I thought maybe it was. But I have no clue, and I don't trust the vendor.

But are we picking over labels here? Yixing clay, let's just call is zisha, is transported to Taiwan. Check.

From there, if it is adapted to be wheel thrown (which perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't?), then it is no longer zisha? Is there a word for it, if it exists?
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby Chip » Dec 18th, '12, 22:51

Truth in selling could be simply clarified in the title. "Teapot made of Zisha Clay in Taiwan" for example.

Yixing is not the only example of this kind of thing. So called sencha is produced in China and Brazil. I would not have a a problem with the use of "sencha" in the title such as "Chinese Sencha" ... since the use of the term sencha by itself implies Japanese production.

Yamamotayama has no scruples selling their Brazilian Sencha as simply Sencha ... kind of like selling Champagne produced in California without clarification.

But such tea terms are not protected. Still, truth in advertising would go a long way. A company that chooses to mislead or simply not disclose will not get any of my Tea/TeawareBucks!!!
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby wyardley » Dec 18th, '12, 23:01

As I understand it, there are some Yixing potters who do wheel throwing of pots (in the sense that most people understand it), but I haven't been able to find any references online anymore.

I'm neither a potter nor an expert on raw materials, but I believe kaolin needs to be added to make the material throwable.

I could be wrong, but I would imagine that much of the zisha available now, whether or not it's processed for wheel throwing, is not completely pure or free of additives. Also, the material needs to be modified somewhat for slip-casting (is it just water?), but people still consider slip-cast pots to be Yixing pots.

I do agree that slab construction is traditional for Yixing pots, unlike, say, Chaozhou pots. Of course, as anyone who's seen a video of Yixing pots being made by hand will know, a small wheel (called a banding wheel) is often used, and in later stages, the pot is sometimes turned while using a tool against it, so you will sometimes see circular toolmarks in some actual Yixing pots (conversely, the marks inside from wheel throwing a pot are often smoothed out, so a pot can be wheel thrown but not have obvious circular lines on the inside). But most of the basic construction is done by pounding out slabs of the raw material.

I have heard anecdotal reports about pots made in Taiwan with Yixing clay. But I'm not sure how often that really happens, and I'd imagine most potters there are working with local stoneware. In the days when exporting pots from the mainland was harder, I imagine exporting clay would have also been hard. These days, I would imagine it would be cheaper to have the pots manufactured in the mainland and then shipped to Taiwan.
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby Tead Off » Dec 19th, '12, 01:44

MarshalN wrote:
Tead Off wrote:
MarshalN wrote:
Tead Off wrote:
MarshalN wrote:
needaTEAcher wrote:So nothing made in Taiwan is ever Yixing clay? Not one single artist in one single studio in Taiwan has ever worked with Yixing clay and found a way to adapt it to a wheel?


Yixing clay does make its way to Taiwan, but you said wheel-thrown Taiwan pots, and those are most definitely not Yixing. They just look similar, sort of.

Even if they adapted it to the wheel, somehow, the resulting ware is not going to be the same as traditional Yixing ware.

Yes, if we're talking traditional, it will not be the same if wheel thrown. But, if a Chinese is born in America, is he still not Chinese? :D


But if you want your Chinese to speak Chinese and think like Chinese, then for that purpose, that person is not Chinese!

But, many American born Chinese do speak Chinese and do inherit the cultural thinking.

Are you saying the Yixing pots made in Taiwan don't think in Chinese? :D


Since you didn't get it the first time - if the Yixing clay is processed and made in such a way that is radically different from the original, can we still call it a Yixing? I don't think so, not if you are looking for those qualities.

Same reason why we can't just call any sparkling wine "Champagne". If you think it's ok to do so, I've got some Laobanzhang to sell you.

I did get it. And would agree that if additives are used to change the composition of the clay, it would no longer be the same clay as pure Yixing. But, I'm not sure if you would need to add anything to the existing Yixing clay except processing it over a period of time to soften and make it possible for wheel throwing. Clay preparation is something that I've only heard about and don't really know what that processing would entail. If no other clay is added, then the resulting clay would still be pure Yixing clay whether it was slab-made or wheel-thrown. Maybe one of the potters here could elaborate if they have some experience with Yixing clay. Of course, if the perception is only about 'tradition', then anything NOT made by a Yixing potter cannot be called Yixing. Then we get into a completely different discussion.
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby MarshalN » Dec 19th, '12, 02:35

Tead Off wrote:
MarshalN wrote:
Tead Off wrote:
MarshalN wrote:
Tead Off wrote:
MarshalN wrote:
needaTEAcher wrote:So nothing made in Taiwan is ever Yixing clay? Not one single artist in one single studio in Taiwan has ever worked with Yixing clay and found a way to adapt it to a wheel?


Yixing clay does make its way to Taiwan, but you said wheel-thrown Taiwan pots, and those are most definitely not Yixing. They just look similar, sort of.

Even if they adapted it to the wheel, somehow, the resulting ware is not going to be the same as traditional Yixing ware.

Yes, if we're talking traditional, it will not be the same if wheel thrown. But, if a Chinese is born in America, is he still not Chinese? :D


But if you want your Chinese to speak Chinese and think like Chinese, then for that purpose, that person is not Chinese!

But, many American born Chinese do speak Chinese and do inherit the cultural thinking.

Are you saying the Yixing pots made in Taiwan don't think in Chinese? :D


Since you didn't get it the first time - if the Yixing clay is processed and made in such a way that is radically different from the original, can we still call it a Yixing? I don't think so, not if you are looking for those qualities.

Same reason why we can't just call any sparkling wine "Champagne". If you think it's ok to do so, I've got some Laobanzhang to sell you.

I did get it. And would agree that if additives are used to change the composition of the clay, it would no longer be the same clay as pure Yixing. But, I'm not sure if you would need to add anything to the existing Yixing clay except processing it over a period of time to soften and make it possible for wheel throwing. Clay preparation is something that I've only heard about and don't really know what that processing would entail. If no other clay is added, then the resulting clay would still be pure Yixing clay whether it was slab-made or wheel-thrown. Maybe one of the potters here could elaborate if they have some experience with Yixing clay. Of course, if the perception is only about 'tradition', then anything NOT made by a Yixing potter cannot be called Yixing. Then we get into a completely different discussion.


I believe Yixing clay as normally used and processed and composed is not throwable. To make it throwable the first thing you need to do is to make it more malleable - I don't think it just becomes "softer" on its own without you adding things to it (moisture, perhaps, or other substances). In any case, having done so, what you have is no longer the same thing.
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