Cloud suggests 5 criteria to choose pu for aging


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Re: Cloud suggested 5 criteria to choose pu for aging

Postby ChengduCha » Jan 6th, '13, 12:32

ImmortaliTEA wrote:I was of the opinion that bitterness without huigan should be referred to as astringency but based on these posts I guess that is wrong. I realize there might be info about this in past records but I would greatly appreciate if someone could explain the difference between bitterness & astringency.


I think those things are rather hard to translate from Chinese to English, so there is no fixed wording.
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Re: Cloud suggested 5 criteria to choose pu for aging

Postby apache » Jan 6th, '13, 13:26

MarshalN wrote:There are two types of Lao Man'e tea, the sweeter kind and the bitter kind, a lot of the stuff on the market are the bitter kind, and will be pretty much forever bitter no matter how long it's been aged. Those really are no good. People mistakenly identify bitterness with strength/power, but there are different kinds of bitterness.


I didn't know there is sweeter kind of Lao Man'E tea, I thought it was always very very bitter.

Talking about bitterness and astringency, I don't think I could tell easily the different between them. However, I do know if you brew stale green tea e.g. Longjing and brew it long in boiling water, that bitterness is really from hell and it stays as well. If you find any pu has any hint of that kind of bitterness, it's really not a good sign.
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Re: Cloud suggests 5 criteria to choose pu for aging

Postby JakubT » Jan 6th, '13, 13:39

apache: E.g., this one: http://teaurchin.com/shop-for-tea/lao-m ... ummer.html is quite sweet and lovely. The bitterness transforms quite reasonably too.
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Re: Cloud suggested 5 criteria to choose pu for aging

Postby tst » Jan 6th, '13, 13:40

MarshalN wrote:
Exempt wrote:
MarshalN wrote:
shah82 wrote:There are lots of cakes that are bitter and doesn't yield huigans. For instance, I'm not really a fan of most Lao Man'e, because the yield, frankly, is not worth it. /quote]

Lao Man'e is not generally considered good pu by old tea hands.

Why is it not generally considered good? I really enjoy it. I can get it at a good price and I find it has good qi, mouthfeel, strength, and if brewed right it has a deep sweetness along with the bitterness.


There are two types of Lao Man'e tea, the sweeter kind and the bitter kind, a lot of the stuff on the market are the bitter kind, and will be pretty much forever bitter no matter how long it's been aged. Those really are no good. People mistakenly identify bitterness with strength/power, but there are different kinds of bitterness.


Hey Marshal, if you could check your PMs/email, I'd appreciate it :)

Continue ...
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Re: Cloud suggested 5 criteria to choose pu for aging

Postby Exempt » Jan 6th, '13, 13:42

MarshalN wrote:
Exempt wrote:
MarshalN wrote:
shah82 wrote:There are lots of cakes that are bitter and doesn't yield huigans. For instance, I'm not really a fan of most Lao Man'e, because the yield, frankly, is not worth it. /quote]

Lao Man'e is not generally considered good pu by old tea hands.

Why is it not generally considered good? I really enjoy it. I can get it at a good price and I find it has good qi, mouthfeel, strength, and if brewed right it has a deep sweetness along with the bitterness.


There are two types of Lao Man'e tea, the sweeter kind and the bitter kind, a lot of the stuff on the market are the bitter kind, and will be pretty much forever bitter no matter how long it's been aged. Those really are no good. People mistakenly identify bitterness with strength/power, but there are different kinds of bitterness.

I was unaware of this, thanks for the help. I recently purchased some Lao Man'e maocha because, when I brewed it with slightly less leaf than I normally use, there was a thick deep sweetness on the tip of the tongue stronger than I have noticed with any other tea. The bitterness is still there but It is not what I would describe as astringent. Maybe I'm just immune to astringency ;)
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Re: Cloud suggests 5 criteria to choose pu for aging

Postby fdrx » Jan 6th, '13, 13:49

I was of the opinion that bitterness without huigan should be referred to as astringency but based on these posts I guess that is wrong. I realize there might be info about this in past records but I would greatly appreciate if someone could explain the difference between bitterness & astringency.


Bitterness is in the taste; taste and aftertaste of course. Astringency is a physical feeling in the mouth produced by the tea, so it depends also on how is your mouth, the temperature of the soup, ...
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Re: Cloud suggests 5 criteria to choose pu for aging

Postby apache » Jan 6th, '13, 14:03

JakubT wrote:apache: E.g., this one: http://teaurchin.com/shop-for-tea/lao-m ... ummer.html is quite sweet and lovely. The bitterness transforms quite reasonably too.


Thanks for the suggestion. If I read the description correctly, it used summer harvested leaves for sheng pu and this is rather unusual.
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Re: Cloud suggests 5 criteria to choose pu for aging

Postby JakubT » Jan 6th, '13, 14:40

apache wrote:
JakubT wrote:apache: E.g., this one: http://teaurchin.com/shop-for-tea/lao-m ... ummer.html is quite sweet and lovely. The bitterness transforms quite reasonably too.


Thanks for the suggestion. If I read the description correctly, it used summer harvested leaves for sheng pu and this is rather unusual.


Indeed, it is quite unusual. I think it's the only summer tea I had. But it's not particularly outside normality in means of taste, etc. - i.e., it's a "proper" puerh, not some weirdness.
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Re: Cloud suggests 5 criteria to choose pu for aging

Postby shah82 » Jan 6th, '13, 15:17

Again, there are sweet Lao Man'e.

The issue with Man'e is that the kudingcha version has a bitterness that doesn't go away, and can be really unpleasant. Ageing does transform it some, into a kind of high pitched woody taste, however, the bitterness tends to stay. It's just not the same as a proper Bulang bitterness.

I do think of Lao Man'e as overrated in general. It's only slightly like LBZ, with little of what makes it LBZ. Much more Bulang proper relative to Menghai. And you pay alot for this tea, compared other Bulang area teas that are just as good, in their own way.

The teaurchin Lao Man'e is pretty good. Don't think the particular version I have had is actually sold. The tea currently sold is not what I had.
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Re: Cloud suggested 5 criteria to choose pu for aging

Postby apache » Jan 7th, '13, 19:11

Tead Off wrote:
MarshalN wrote:
Tead Off wrote:
MarshalN wrote:
Tead Off wrote:
MarshalN wrote:Over-oxidized red teas exist, but they're not that common. Green tea puerh is much more prevalent.

What is actually meant by 'green tea' puerh? Is it tea that has not been through any fermentation process and made into a cake?


Kill-green at too high a temperature. Can be quite fragrant now, but will not age well at all.

How can you tell this?


By experience. If it tastes like green tea, red flags should go up.

Okay. I've just drunk a young sheng with that exact profile. Leaves were gorgeous and whole. I even wrote in my notes how it tasted just like green teas I've had.


If you are still not sure about that cake, just leave it for a couple of years and sample it again. By that time, if it were green-tea-pu, you would get rather unpleasant stale green tea taste.

That's one of the reason why choosing a few years old cakes is much easier that choosing a brand new cakes came straight from trees. After a few years most faults or problems would show up.
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Re: Cloud suggested 5 criteria to choose pu for aging

Postby TwoDog2 » Jan 7th, '13, 21:03

MarshalN wrote:]

There are two types of Lao Man'e tea, the sweeter kind and the bitter kind, a lot of the stuff on the market are the bitter kind, and will be pretty much forever bitter no matter how long it's been aged. Those really are no good. People mistakenly identify bitterness with strength/power, but there are different kinds of bitterness.



I realize this is a personal preference thing, but I am a big fan of Laoman'e. Bitter or sweet variety. Young and old. The whole Bulang area, Laoman'e/LBZ are enjoyable for me.
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Re: Cloud suggested 5 criteria to choose pu for aging

Postby Tead Off » Jan 7th, '13, 23:08

apache wrote:
Tead Off wrote:
MarshalN wrote:
Tead Off wrote:
MarshalN wrote:
Tead Off wrote:
MarshalN wrote:Over-oxidized red teas exist, but they're not that common. Green tea puerh is much more prevalent.

What is actually meant by 'green tea' puerh? Is it tea that has not been through any fermentation process and made into a cake?


Kill-green at too high a temperature. Can be quite fragrant now, but will not age well at all.

How can you tell this?


By experience. If it tastes like green tea, red flags should go up.

Okay. I've just drunk a young sheng with that exact profile. Leaves were gorgeous and whole. I even wrote in my notes how it tasted just like green teas I've had.


If you are still not sure about that cake, just leave it for a couple of years and sample it again. By that time, if it were green-tea-pu, you would get rather unpleasant stale green tea taste.

That's one of the reason why choosing a few years old cakes is much easier that choosing a brand new cakes came straight from trees. After a few years most faults or problems would show up.

If an experienced puerh person like Cloud lists 5 no-nos, why would you buy a cake with one of those no-nos? In this case, a young cake which tastes like green tea? This would be a very expensive way to buy puerh hoping that the cake will develop into something good down the line. Am I missing something here?
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Re: Cloud suggests 5 criteria to choose pu for aging

Postby tst » Jan 8th, '13, 00:49

I think he is just saying to leave the remaining sample you already have and try it again after several years have passed.

I don't think he's saying to buy the cake if there is any questions about it.
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Re: Cloud suggests 5 criteria to choose pu for aging

Postby Tead Off » Jan 8th, '13, 00:56

tst wrote:I think he is just saying to leave the remaining sample you already have and try it again after several years have passed.

I don't think he's saying to buy the cake if there is any questions about it.

Sounds like the cake is already bought to me. Samples, when possible, are definitely the way to go.
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Re: Cloud suggests 5 criteria to choose pu for aging

Postby apache » Jan 8th, '13, 05:27

Tead Off wrote:
tst wrote:I think he is just saying to leave the remaining sample you already have and try it again after several years have passed.

I don't think he's saying to buy the cake if there is any questions about it.

Sounds like the cake is already bought to me. Samples, when possible, are definitely the way to go.


No, I'm not saying to buy the cake and see what happen in a few years time. I thougth you already got the cake and not sure about it. Just keep the remaining sample and try again in a few years time. But if you enjoy it and are not planning to age it and the price is good, I see no reason why not have one and drink it like green tea.
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