Probable* Fake Dayi


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Probable* Fake Dayi

Postby tst » Apr 19th, '13, 18:11

I'm looking for input regarding some tea I purchased that I believe may be fake.

Basically, I've acquired some 2011 8582, some 2011 7542, and a cake of 2012 7542. Comparing the wrappers and holograms of all three of these, I'm noticing some subtle differences.

The 8582 and 2012 7542 I'm not worried about ... these seem similar in all aspects of anti-counterfeiting (plus, I bought them from YS and I trust Scott's business). However, I'm noticing the discrepancies when I compare the 8582s and '12 7542 to the 2011 7542 cakes (I purchased the 2011 7542 from a different source).

For example:

2011 8582: very detailed holographic sticker (distinct lines and easily seen shapes), green AND red lines randomly placed on sticker (varies cake to cake)

2012 7542: same as above

2011 7542: less detailed holographic sticker, only green lines which are placed in practically the same locations on the sticker (no variation between cakes)

I'm in the processing of editing some photos to make this clear, but I'm interested for the input of anyone else who has any 2011 Dayi 7542 cakes.
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Re: Probable* Fake Dayi

Postby tst » Apr 19th, '13, 20:15

Here are some photos I took ... hope they help illustrate what I'm seeing here.

Image

Starting on the left with the 8582, we'll go left to right.

#1 2011 8582(cakes a and b)
a
Image

Image

b
Image

Notice the difference in the location of the little holographic dashes? In cake a there are two dashes in the top right corner and a red "loop" on the right about in the middle. See how cake b has red and green dashes as well, however the locations vary.

#2 2012 7542
Image

Image

See how the 2012 7542 also has red and green dashes, but also in different locations than either 8582 cake.

#3 2011 7542 (cakes a-d)

a
Image

Image

b
Image

Image

c
Image

Image

d
Image

Image

See how all of the dashes in the 7542 cakes a-d are all in the same locations? And see the difference in the details of the label itself? I think these 2011 7542s are not authentic. Close ups to come.
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Re: Probable* Fake Dayi

Postby tst » Apr 19th, '13, 20:20

Here are some closeups of the three.

#1 2011 8582 (cake a)

Image

#2 2012 7542
Image

#3 2011 7542
Image

You can more easily see the difference in the labels. The 8582 and 2012 7542 have the same details and the red ribbon strips look the same. However the 2011 7542 has major differences ... less details, ribbon strip has reversed or upside-down characters.

There are definitely numerous differences between these cakes. In my opinion, the 8582s and the 2012 7542 seem authentic, while the 2011 7542 cakes are most probably fakes. Anyone else have any 2011 or 2012 Dayi cakes that they can compare? Any opinions or input are definitely welcome.

Thanks.
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Re: Probable* Fake Dayi

Postby mr mopu » Apr 19th, '13, 20:39

Dayi will change the labels almost every year. The placement of the tag in question looks just like every Dayi cake I have purchased. The outer wrapper with the info about the tea i.e. date and other info "hidden" under the tag looks like they are "real" Dayi cakes. The hologram looks legit to me but there may be someone else with more knowledge on this than myself.
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Re: Probable* Fake Dayi

Postby lordsbm » Apr 19th, '13, 20:59

China is advancing at super high rate, so is their counterfeit market. If you openly look at it, these are just ink, paper, prints. It'll only matter if you are in the tea speculation market.

To normal tea drinker it's still in the taste. Even 7542 taste is not hard to fake anymore. Anyway the modern 7542 will never become 88qing. Some may even find the current price aren't worth it.

Best thing is taste it, if you like it then it doesn't matter if it's real or fake.

I don't think all will agree with what I said, but it's ok to disagree :lol:
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Re: Probable* Fake Dayi

Postby mr mopu » Apr 19th, '13, 21:04

Best comment and I agree, if it taste good drink it! I do!
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Re: Probable* Fake Dayi

Postby gingkoseto » Apr 19th, '13, 21:10

I haven't bought any dayi 7542 since 2009, and back then I didn't have to learn how to distinguish real and fake. It used to be such an inexpensive tea that it wasn't even profitable to fake it :(

Anyway... here is a link from a Chinese forum talking about a fake dayi 7542.
http://teabbs.zjol.com.cn/viewthread.php?tid=158384&extra=&highlight=7542&page=1

You may take a look at the photos, and use google translate, if necessary. They mention some subtle differences. The comparisons sound tedious and I didn't read it thoroughly. But they did mention that the small strip of UV label has "dayi" inverted, which sounds similar to your suspected fake.

The post was from 2011. Interestingly (and probably not surprisingly), it re-appeared recently. According to tea drinkers' reports, the same seller is still active and has excellent feedback scores, just with changed taobao store name and changed taobao link. :!:
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Re: Probable* Fake Dayi

Postby Teaism » Apr 19th, '13, 21:53

lordsbm wrote:China is advancing at super high rate, so is their counterfeit market. If you openly look at it, these are just ink, paper, prints. It'll only matter if you are in the tea speculation market.

To normal tea drinker it's still in the taste. Even 7542 taste is not hard to fake anymore. Anyway the modern 7542 will never become 88qing. Some may even find the current price aren't worth it.

Best thing is taste it, if you like it then it doesn't matter if it's real or fake.

I don't think all will agree with what I said, but it's ok to disagree :lol:


+1 and well said.

Few years ago I went to a tea wholesale centre in southern China pretending to be merchant and after establishing a platform for intimate business talk the ultimate question was offered.....

What price, tea, age and label do you want? Meaning to say that they can fake any tea, age and print any label to suit any budget.

Only wise way to tea is learn to taste and see, not to hear or read too much on the paper and lies. No vendor will say anything negative on their tea. Vendors might lie, the stories might be out of the world and the label might be fake....only the tea will tell the truth, unless you lie to yourself.
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Re: Probable* Fake Dayi

Postby gingkoseto » Apr 19th, '13, 22:05

Teaism wrote:
lordsbm wrote:To normal tea drinker it's still in the taste. Even 7542 taste is not hard to fake anymore. Anyway the modern 7542 will never become 88qing. Some may even find the current price aren't worth it.

Best thing is taste it, if you like it then it doesn't matter if it's real or fake.

I don't think all will agree with what I said, but it's ok to disagree :lol:


Only wise way to tea is learn to taste and see, not to hear or read too much on the paper and lies. No vendor will say anything negative on their tea. Vendors might lie, the stories might be out of the world and the label might be fake....only the tea will tell the truth, unless you lie to yourself.


If someone has special interest in 7542, maybe they could buy some sure real products and do a side and side comparison to tell. But such comparison is quite tedious because few people enjoy drinking new 7542.

Besides, I remember Cloud of Hong Kong once wrote about a dayi tea, pried open two surely authentic cakes (I don't remember why he did it, maybe the first one was not tasty and he read about some other people's positive comments on the same cake), they didn't taste exactly the same to him.

For a lot of other non-formula products, tasting new tea to judge quality basically means one has to have the skill to tell a tea's future 10-20 years' quality. I wish I had the skill. I have a bunch of mid- to early- 2000 teas that I like very much now, but didn't have the wisdom earlier to get more of these tea when the tea was newer and still available in market. I guess 90% people and 99% non-puerh professionals don't have such predicting skills, and it takes very long time and many unpleasant infusions (of harsh new puerh) to develop such skills.
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Re: Probable* Fake Dayi

Postby lordsbm » Apr 19th, '13, 22:23

Teaism wrote:+1 and well said.

Few years ago I went to a tea wholesale centre in southern China pretending to be merchant and after establishing a platform for intimate business talk the ultimate question was offered.....

What price, tea, age and label do you want? Meaning to say that they can fake any tea, age and print any label to suit any budget.

Only wise way to tea is learn to taste and see, not to hear or read too much on the paper and lies. No vendor will say anything negative on their tea. Vendors might lie, the stories might be out of the world and the label might be fake....only the tea will tell the truth, unless you lie to yourself.


Hehe this is true for almost any China products. If you'd traded with China production/manufacturing, it's almost the same. As long as you have sufficient quantity (can be as little as 10pieces) for the right price, you'll likely get what you want. :lol:

I remember the fake 1000HKD (2007-8?) from ATM machines, then the 100RMB high grade fake notes with anti-counterfeit in 2008-9. The only way to tell is try pull the notes and touch the print texture on the notes. Meaning need to do it manually.

If they have the technology then to do this, how can one think it's impossible to make simple counterfeit labels using outdated 5 years technology they used for the notes :lol:

edit: Also no smart sellers will give out bad samples :lol: There's this consumer mentality (speculation/rumors) in the the cosmetic/skincare market, that samples are normally better. The vendors will make the samples better so you can get better results, then reduced the quality of the real product to lower the cost. :lol:

Don't see why this can't be do for any other products.

BTW, not being skeptical. Despite knowing different practices in different industry I still buy what I like without thinking much. Else really don't need buy anything.

A few senior successful businessman from Malaysia and Taiwan once told me this. 只有奸商,没有忠商,不过要奸的合情合理。 :lol:
Last edited by lordsbm on Apr 19th, '13, 23:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Probable* Fake Dayi

Postby lordsbm » Apr 19th, '13, 22:44

gingkoseto wrote:If someone has special interest in 7542, maybe they could buy some sure real products and do a side and side comparison to tell. But such comparison is quite tedious because few people enjoy drinking new 7542.

Besides, I remember Cloud of Hong Kong once wrote about a dayi tea, pried open two surely authentic cakes (I don't remember why he did it, maybe the first one was not tasty and he read about some other people's positive comments on the same cake), they didn't taste exactly the same to him.

For a lot of other non-formula products, tasting new tea to judge quality basically means one has to have the skill to tell a tea's future 10-20 years' quality. I wish I had the skill. I have a bunch of mid- to early- 2000 teas that I like very much now, but didn't have the wisdom earlier to get more of these tea when the tea was newer and still available in market. I guess 90% people and 99% non-puerh professionals don't have such predicting skills, and it takes very long time and many unpleasant infusions (of harsh new puerh) to develop such skills.


7542 taste is different by the batch if ones tongue is educated enough, he/she will be able to taste it. Personally i think new tea is good taste education for beginners if they like pu erh.

The flavors, aroma, taste from new tea is just much stronger or rather intense. It'll kinda build a good reference point of the basic taste of pu erh tea.

IMHO, cloud or any review you read is true only to the reviewer. Not everyone has the same taste. Just like I learn I like drinking pu erh from glass cup better than stonewear or porcelain. The taste from these 3 materials just taste different to me, even if it's the same brew.

Something I conclude from tuition tea recently is those who gave good reviews on them likely have a taste factor or two which appeal to them. Like if a gal prefer sweeter taste and light flavors, she'll likely give a good review on a tuition tea despite being a cheap tuition tea. Same gal you give LBZ, she'll likely won't enjoy as much.

As for prediction I take it as a pitch of salt. Even if we take the storage factor away, I bet there are experts who had made bad purchases which he/she never spoken about :lol: I bet they won't take any irresponsibility if anyone follow their predictions. (ahem, end of the world) It's really up to ones decision to follow.

Experts are just people who gained respect from others due to whatever reasons. But if he/she really have the skill/talent is really another story :roll: Some may disagree, but it's ok :lol:
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Re: Probable* Fake Dayi

Postby futurebird » Apr 20th, '13, 00:33

lordsbm wrote:Best thing is taste it, if you like it then it doesn't matter if it's real or fake.


+10

What if the fake tastes better then the real thing? which one would you want then?
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Re: Probable* Fake Dayi

Postby nicolas » Apr 20th, '13, 02:36

TST,

I think your 2011 7542 is fake. The key giveaway is the lack of watermark detail and color tone in the 2011 7542 sticker. There is no need to examine the tea or drink it to determine whether the cake is fake - one look at the sticker is sufficient. I have checked my 2012 7542 and 2011 7542 stickers and they contain the same detail as your 2011 8582 and 2012 7542 stickers. The second reason is that the sticker was not properly affixed and there is a crease (i.e. may have been placed by hand rather than machine). I occasionally see this in fake Dayi cakes I come across.

GENUINE LABEL - 2012 7542
Image

FAKE LABEL - 2011 7542 - lack of color intensity and detail in sticker
Image

You should buy Dayi and Xiaguan from reliable sources in future, especially if you are buying to store over the long term. Taobao and eBay are not reliable sources.
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Re: Probable* Fake Dayi

Postby Teaism » Apr 20th, '13, 03:11

futurebird wrote:
lordsbm wrote:Best thing is taste it, if you like it then it doesn't matter if it's real or fake.


+10

What if the fake tastes better then the real thing? which one would you want then?


Taste of good and bad tea is relative. Some iconic great tea taste horrible in the first 10 years then changed to something excellent.
The label also don't help as they also change the label design from batch to batch especially for larger production factories. So is it copy of the original or is it the original of the copy? No one can tell. Even different batch has different quality, the tea come from different locations and processes as the same series.

Most instances, it is really a futile debate and discussion...unless one is really an expert and experience tea drinker. Even so, the expert and experience also have different contrasting view. So eventually it is up to our own experience, and knowledge and commitment to decide our path, rightly or wrongly, the doubt always lingers on..... :wink:
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Re: Probable* Fake Dayi

Postby lordsbm » Apr 20th, '13, 03:27

futurebird wrote:
lordsbm wrote:Best thing is taste it, if you like it then it doesn't matter if it's real or fake.


+10

What if the fake tastes better then the real thing? which one would you want then?


It is often mentioned on China discussions that zhongcha downfall is when the fake tasted better than the original :lol:

I'm buying mostly white paper, to me it's the same as self-brand/custom/fake wrapper tea. What matters is the taste and hope you don't find too much weird things in it :lol:

Seriously you can also find alien stuff in well known brand items. I'm sure most of u know that :roll:

As for pesticide goes, I'd at least ate veggies grown with pesticide or worst for 20+years (edit: or rather 30+ years, but I do believe I survived the days when every other farmer use pesticide :lol: ). That's before organic became popular. As long as what I'm getting taste good (to me) and made from real tea, I'm not overzealous about it. But that's just me talking about my health :lol:
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