The latest Dayi's anti-counterfeiting measure


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The latest Dayi's anti-counterfeiting measure

Postby apache » Sep 24th, '13, 10:41

Just saw this on HK Tea Forum:
http://www.hkteaforum.com/forum.php?mod=redirect&tid=11560&goto=lastpost#lastpost

http://www.dayitea.com/news/item-6882.html


If they do this, why don't they microchipping their cakes, having a piece of silicon embedded deep inside every cake.
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Re: The latest Dayi's anti-counterfeiting measure

Postby Drax » Sep 24th, '13, 11:18

I must be missing or misunderstanding something... is it just a code? How is that not easily counterfeited?
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Re: The latest Dayi's anti-counterfeiting measure

Postby apache » Sep 24th, '13, 11:45

I'm guessing here. The 16-digit code (it could combine with mix cases alphabet) is concealed, so they can make it only can be checked once only, if typing in the same code again, it could say it already been "activated". As 16 digit is a large number, they could randomly generate a subset of valid codes which makes it very difficult fake. But again, what could you do if you find your cake is fake beside avoiding that vendor next time.
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Re: The latest Dayi's anti-counterfeiting measure

Postby Poohblah » Sep 24th, '13, 11:49

Drax wrote:I must be missing or misunderstanding something... is it just a code? How is that not easily counterfeited?
A code can't always be easily counterfeited. For instance, imagine credit card numbers. It may seem like you could just make up 16 digits and try to pass them off as a credit card number, but in fact, this won't work. This is because credit card numbers are generated using a specific method which effectively means that not all 16 digits form a valid credit card number. For the same reason, you probably won't be able to make up a code and successfully pass it off as a Dayi serial number.

Furthermore, you cannot simply duplicate another label using the same serial number. By the looks of it, a purchaser or vendor of a cake registers it online using the serial number and QR code. That way, if somebody else tries to register the same cake, then they will be unable to do so and the system will warn that cake may be counterfeit.
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Re: The latest Dayi's anti-counterfeiting measure

Postby Poohblah » Sep 24th, '13, 11:50

apache wrote:I'm guessing here. The 16-digit code (it could combine with mix cases alphabet) is concealed, so they can make it only can be checked once only, if typing in the same code again, it could say it already been "activated". As 16 digit is a large number, they could randomly generate a subset of valid codes which makes it very difficult fake. But again, what could you do if you find your cake is fake beside avoiding that vendor next time.


I think the idea is that the QR code allows somebody to easily verify the authenticity of a cake on-site using a smartphone.
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Re: The latest Dayi's anti-counterfeiting measure

Postby quikstep » Sep 24th, '13, 12:56

i've bought tulin tuo that are perfectly looking and taste and smells like those i've bought at stores in my country. however, none of 1/2 dozen tuos i bought could have their id matched to their website.

quite skeptical even if they put a 32 digit authentication code.
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Re: The latest Dayi's anti-counterfeiting measure

Postby Drax » Sep 24th, '13, 15:32

Ok, if there's a "check once" method in place, then I suppose it could work.

But still... if it's hidden and you have to reveal it, then presumably you've already bought it. I suppose it could help you if you need to return something (I'm sure that Dayi stores would honor the return... but what about other stores?).

But still again, how will this work with the secondary market? If somebody buys a cake, checks/activates the code and then the cake is not used and is resold... it seems as though a few years after the production, the reliability of the check drastically plummets.

In fact, I wonder whether this change might cause an additional premium for "unregistered" Dayi tea? Here's an example. Fast forward to 2024. You're looking to buy a 2014 Dayi cake that has this authenticity code. A vendor has an "unregistered" cake for $500 and a "registered" cake for $100 (I'm just making up numbers) -- the argument being that the previous owner of the $100 cake already checked/registered the number. But as far as you're concerned, it could also be a fake because the code is already used. Hm. (Note that I'm assuming as a vendor that you would HAVE to offer it for less because of that uncertainty). Now here's the kick in the pants. Let's say you buy the $500 cake. Now you check the code, and it's good -- the tea (according to the system) is legitimate. For resale purposes, you now have a $100 cake. It's now indistinguishable from a checked cake (aside from your honest vouching for it; your friends will probably believe you, at least). That's fine if you want to drink the cake and not resell it, although you certainly could have had more tea for the cheaper price...

Yes, the scenario is made up. Maybe there won't be any price differential, or maybe it won't be as drastically different (or maybe vendors will have to start vouching for "checked" tea as being authentic). I guess the bottom line is that for me, this news doesn't give me any more confidence.
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Re: The latest Dayi's anti-counterfeiting measure

Postby shah82 » Sep 24th, '13, 16:24

Treating tea like money is the problem here.

When that ends, the counterfeiting ends. And people who pay a premium based on serial numbers vs paying for honest teashop-keeper is going to lose, big time.
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Re: The latest Dayi's anti-counterfeiting measure

Postby apache » Sep 24th, '13, 16:52

Drax wrote:Ok, if there's a "check once" method in place, then I suppose it could work.

But still... if it's hidden and you have to reveal it, then presumably you've already bought it. I suppose it could help you if you need to return something (I'm sure that Dayi stores would honor the return... but what about other stores?).

But still again, how will this work with the secondary market? If somebody buys a cake, checks/activates the code and then the cake is not used and is resold... it seems as though a few years after the production, the reliability of the check drastically plummets.

In fact, I wonder whether this change might cause an additional premium for "unregistered" Dayi tea? Here's an example. Fast forward to 2024. You're looking to buy a 2014 Dayi cake that has this authenticity code. A vendor has an "unregistered" cake for $500 and a "registered" cake for $100 (I'm just making up numbers) -- the argument being that the previous owner of the $100 cake already checked/registered the number. But as far as you're concerned, it could also be a fake because the code is already used. Hm. (Note that I'm assuming as a vendor that you would HAVE to offer it for less because of that uncertainty). Now here's the kick in the pants. Let's say you buy the $500 cake. Now you check the code, and it's good -- the tea (according to the system) is legitimate. For resale purposes, you now have a $100 cake. It's now indistinguishable from a checked cake (aside from your honest vouching for it; your friends will probably believe you, at least). That's fine if you want to drink the cake and not resell it, although you certainly could have had more tea for the cheaper price...

Yes, the scenario is made up. Maybe there won't be any price differential, or maybe it won't be as drastically different (or maybe vendors will have to start vouching for "checked" tea as being authentic). I guess the bottom line is that for me, this news doesn't give me any more confidence.


That's why I said why don't they micro-chipping it instead. Or even better, use DNA finger printing methods, e.g. AFLP and have a database of every batch DNA profile. :mrgreen: Surely, no one, even in China can fake DNA profile yet!

I heard someone said for older cake, before fluorescent and laser hologram labels were used. Cakes were wrapped in such a way, if it was open, it cannot be re-wrapped in the original condition. And shops wouldn't buy back any cakes which been opened. Also a tong has a better reselling value than individual cake, and an unopened box has even better reselling value than a single tong. I think the secondary market is mostly trading in boxes than individual cake, but this is for the professional tea investors. Anyway, I think most new Dayi cakes are for speculative trading rather than drinking.
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Re: The latest Dayi's anti-counterfeiting measure

Postby apache » Sep 24th, '13, 16:57

shah82 wrote:Treating tea like money is the problem here.

When that ends, the counterfeiting ends. And people who pay a premium based on serial numbers vs paying for honest teashop-keeper is going to lose, big time.


I thought puerh cakes were the currency for the shadow economy in China at present. It was used to be other luxury goods, but this has become too obvious ...
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Re: The latest Dayi's anti-counterfeiting measure

Postby Drax » Sep 24th, '13, 18:33

shah82 wrote:Treating tea like money is the problem here.

When that ends, the counterfeiting ends. And people who pay a premium based on serial numbers vs paying for honest teashop-keeper is going to lose, big time.


Indeed! :(

apache wrote:I thought puerh cakes were the currency for the shadow economy in China at present. It was used to be other luxury goods, but this has become too obvious ...


Double indeed! :( :(
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Re: The latest Dayi's anti-counterfeiting measure

Postby mr mopu » Sep 24th, '13, 19:27

Drax wrote:
shah82 wrote:Treating tea like money is the problem here.

When that ends, the counterfeiting ends. And people who pay a premium based on serial numbers vs paying for honest teashop-keeper is going to lose, big time.


Indeed! :(

apache wrote:I thought puerh cakes were the currency for the shadow economy in China at present. It was used to be other luxury goods, but this has become too obvious ...


Double indeed! :( :(

We all buy tea to drink in the end.
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Re: The latest Dayi's anti-counterfeiting measure

Postby shah82 » Sep 24th, '13, 22:40

For your amusement:

http://q.equinox.com/articles/2013/09/w ... tleservice

Counterfeit water, it's coming...
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Re: The latest Dayi's anti-counterfeiting measure

Postby chrl42 » Sep 24th, '13, 23:04

shah82 wrote:Treating tea like money is the problem here.

Sadly, it doesn't seem to end. It's in their blood.

Moreover, economy ain't gonna affect 1% who are responsible for Puerh and Yixing market, China is not like Taiwan.
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Re: The latest Dayi's anti-counterfeiting measure

Postby puyuan » Sep 24th, '13, 23:34

shah82 wrote:For your amusement:

http://q.equinox.com/articles/2013/09/w ... tleservice

Counterfeit water, it's coming...


What, in China? Counterfeit water is already there. I had to stop buying Nongfu Spring altogether because what I was getting 50% of the time was a weird rancid thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFmQfTKuCH0 http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007 ... 432130.htm
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