translation for an old kakejiku


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translation for an old kakejiku

Postby Fireflower » Dec 26th, '13, 11:47

Hello everybody,

i got as gift this kakejiku that should be 70-100 years old.
Can anybody help me to understand what there is wrote?
Should be wrote in sosho style.
Thank you very much.

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Re: translation for an old kakejiku

Postby chingwa » Jan 2nd, '14, 08:23

I think the only person who can read this type of handwriting is the person who wrote it. :D I'd be interested to hear if anyone has some input on this as well.
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Re: translation for an old kakejiku

Postby Fireflower » Jan 5th, '14, 11:55

yes is not easy because is wrote in sosho (cursive) and yes, it can be different person by person.
my opinion, based on my research on internet is that characters can be WA (harmony) and KI (mind - spirit) (from right to left).
if you search on google those characters in sosho style, they are not incredibly different than hose on the kakejiku.
mu hope is to find anybody more expert in shodo that my researches on internet :)
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Re: translation for an old kakejiku

Postby Drax » Jan 5th, '14, 16:03

Fireflower, those are some good guesses! I suppose I could see the left character as 気, but the one on the right... well, it seems a stretch to call it 和 (there's an example of a sousho version at this deviant art site).

In particular, the 'floating' marks on the top of the character on the right are unusual. They sort of remind me of 心. It's very.... different.

I'm definitely not an expert in sousho, nor am I an expert in calligraphy skills...
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Re: translation for an old kakejiku

Postby 茶藝-TeaArt08 » Jan 5th, '14, 16:51

I don't read or speak Japanese but as a Mandarin speaker there is of course the crossover with kanji. So, instantly, the character on the left occurred to my mind as qi4/氣, but the character on the right....wow, I don't know. My wife is Taiwanese and took a look. She instantly said the character on the left is likely qi4/氣 but both of us couldn't guess the right character. She said it does not look like 和 to her, even following the strokes. I agree that the floating marks are in some way reminiscent of xin1/心 but that doesn't entirely seem to fit either. One way to search in these moments is to try to identify the character radicals and search words that have those radicals as a basis. For instance, xin1/心 is a component in many characters (忠,愛,etc.). A site that is very handy for this is zhongwen.com for Mandarin and it could help with Japanese, but the site is a Mandarin site that lists, visually, long strings of radical/character derivations. I don't know what the Japanese equivalent of cao3xie2/草寫 (grass style) is but this style definitely seems to be the Japanese equivalent. Is "sosho" the Japanese for "caoxie"? I'll look at some radical charts that I have and see if anything else comes to mind.

Blessings!
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Re: translation for an old kakejiku

Postby Drax » Jan 5th, '14, 17:13

TeaArt, many thanks, great to have a sanity check. I agree with what you mean, that it's not quite fitting 心. It's almost as if the three upper marks on the left are part of a left radical, and the other upper mark on the right is part of a right radical.

In any case, you're correct, the Japanese term is sousho (or sosho, with the first 'o' being long). Usually 草書.
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Re: translation for an old kakejiku

Postby Fireflower » Jan 6th, '14, 06:30

thank you very very much friends, i really appreciate you help!

can you let me know the difference beetween 気 and 氣? i think they are very similar!
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Re: translation for an old kakejiku

Postby Drax » Jan 6th, '14, 07:39

Hrm, I think that 気 is the simplified version of 氣. A number of kanji have simplified forms (for example, 国 is the simplified version of 國).

Again, I'm not an expert, so it would be nice to have confirmation. From what I've read, the Chinese have simplified more characters than the Japanese have (but then again, the Chinese language has many more characters than Japanese's common set of ~1900 characters).
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Re: translation for an old kakejiku

Postby Fireflower » Jan 6th, '14, 08:17

Drax wrote:Hrm, I think that 気 is the simplified version of 氣. A number of kanji have simplified forms (for example, 国 is the simplified version of 國).


yes, i found now on wikipedia under "QI" that in japanese kanji 氣 character was used until 1946, when it was changed to 気.
so is the same character
Last edited by Fireflower on Jan 6th, '14, 08:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: translation for an old kakejiku

Postby Fireflower » Jan 6th, '14, 08:21

another thing, i do not know if can hel, who sold me the kakejiku told me that it mean "fighting for your goal".
i think that this translation does not fit with zen and chado (this kakejiku probably it was in a tearoom), but maybe.....
in any case, if the left character is "ki" the right one should be something connected to him and also to chado, maybe this can help to find some ispiration
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Re: translation for an old kakejiku

Postby Drax » Jan 6th, '14, 10:07

Hrm, if that's the case, the character on the right might be 戦 (fight/battle), which at least fits with the marks on the top. That would render the scroll as as "fighting spirit."
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Re: translation for an old kakejiku

Postby Fireflower » Jan 6th, '14, 12:50

mmm, my opinion is that not fit too much, but i am totally not expert.
what do you thing about this WA in sosho style? can be more similar than the one on the kakejiku?

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Re: translation for an old kakejiku

Postby Drax » Jan 6th, '14, 13:51

No, it's probably not 'wa.' The 3 separate marks on the top are too distinct.

I have to dash, but I found a reference for the sousho of the 'fight' kanji... bottom left gets close....

http://www013.upp.so-net.ne.jp/santai/jpg/0579.jpg
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Re: translation for an old kakejiku

Postby JBaymore » Jan 6th, '14, 14:44

If it actually is that "fighting spirit" translation....... lending itself to Bushido and martial arts orientation.

What is the genesis of the scroll? Artist?

At only 100 years old......... well past the prime of any direct samurai influences. The format of the scroll hanging is in "tea" format though.

best,

.............john
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Re: translation for an old kakejiku

Postby Fireflower » Jan 7th, '14, 06:36

i still think that fight does not fit , there are only the four marks on the top but nothing else imho.

i see that i sosho the square can become a circle or half circle, so maybe there can be a square on the kanji
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