Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!


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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby squaretooth » Jan 27th, '14, 18:13

Here's a few photos of my trip to Yixing in 2009. I spent a lot of time in Dingshu town and purchased some teapots of which I'll post photos at some point. Where I found the best teapots, though, was close to the Yixing China Museum. There were a handful of shops scattered about where it was very clear the craftsmenship of teapots was at a much higher level than what I found elsewhere in Yixing. I fortunately purchased a fangu style, pictured below with the artist. Unfortunately I had no idea what I was doing and bought a teapot much larger than my needs so it's gone unused. I learned quickly after that mistake and look forward to my next trip there.
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby chrl42 » Jan 29th, '14, 23:09

gasninja wrote:No shame economist thanks for sharing. You can't compare your yixing collection Tim's. For most of us that would be like me comparing my four year old son''s finger painting on my refrigerator to the Louvre.
I have curious about spots as well. My new Hong ni pot has a black spot. I will post pics later.

Louvre things are out there for the selected people, the range of understanding and interpretation should be pretty narrowed down, top owners of genius' pantings are the dealers, who can authenticate fake & good, and they are millionaire just because they are capable of doing that.

therefore, norms like us should always be careful and take minutes to think, before dredging out like topics..

what's more difficult, what's crucial is the idea and culture of east and west have a vast difference, even if one gets benefit of understanding Louvre doesn't mean the one is also capable of Chinese art or Yixing teapot.

I guess that was the privilege of era, nowadays we are living in high-tech society but being soaked up with numerous fake goods, not finding way out :)
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby kyarazen » Jan 29th, '14, 23:37

don't forget the chinese's love for making replicas. 明朝复宋,清朝复明,民国复清,等等。(simple translation : ming dynasty people made objects in song dynasty style, etc..) this is seen across all sorts of chinese art works, porcelain, pottery.

and if one thinks that he/she is smart after reading a bunch of books or studying some reference objects in museums/in collectors hands, like how Qiu Xiao Jun says, the counterfeiter or replica maker is just as smart, he probably would have read the same books, and know even more than the consumer :lol: :lol:

a recent section in a local "store" that had been selling ming jia and qing dynasty pots was pulled recently after being in business for over a decade.. i wonder why :lol: :lol:

chrl42 wrote:Louvre things are out there for the selected people, the range of understanding and interpretation should be pretty narrowed down, top owners of genius' pantings are the dealers, who can authenticate fake & good, and they are millionaire just because they are capable of doing that.

therefore, norms like us should always be careful and take minutes to think, before dredging out like topics..

what's more difficult, what's crucial is the idea and culture of east and west have a vast difference, even if one gets benefit of understanding Louvre doesn't mean the one is also capable of Chinese art or Yixing teapot.

I guess that was the privilege of era, nowadays we are living in high-tech society but being soaked up with numerous fake goods, not finding way out :)
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby chrl42 » Jan 30th, '14, 00:51

kyarazen wrote:don't forget the chinese's love for making replicas. 明朝复宋,清朝复明,民国复清,等等。(simple translation : ming dynasty people made objects in song dynasty style, etc..) this is seen across all sorts of chinese art works, porcelain, pottery.

and if one thinks that he/she is smart after reading a bunch of books or studying some reference objects in museums/in collectors hands, like how Qiu Xiao Jun says, the counterfeiter or replica maker is just as smart, he probably would have read the same books, and know even more than the consumer :lol: :lol:

a recent section in a local "store" that had been selling ming jia and qing dynasty pots was pulled recently after being in business for over a decade.. i wonder why :lol: :lol:

chrl42 wrote:Louvre things are out there for the selected people, the range of understanding and interpretation should be pretty narrowed down, top owners of genius' pantings are the dealers, who can authenticate fake & good, and they are millionaire just because they are capable of doing that.

therefore, norms like us should always be careful and take minutes to think, before dredging out like topics..

what's more difficult, what's crucial is the idea and culture of east and west have a vast difference, even if one gets benefit of understanding Louvre doesn't mean the one is also capable of Chinese art or Yixing teapot.

I guess that was the privilege of era, nowadays we are living in high-tech society but being soaked up with numerous fake goods, not finding way out :)

:roll: good thing is being replica doesn't mean bad quality (but it surely can affect price). Almost half of antique Zhuni has Meng Chen seals....can you bring them down? :) Talking about Zhuni, 90s had still some good replicas, but not anymore. Good imitators already got famous and good quality clay all used up.

I have a late-Qing pot imitating early-Qing (昇轩款),

In Han Qi-lou's book, he credited this studio to be early-Qing :mrgreen:

but 昇轩款 is Japan exported late-Qing pots, similar style has 漢記.

You will find numerous wrong credits from books, but there is one rule.

There will be credits dating pot earlier than actual periods, but NEVER vice verca :mrgreen: the experts often mistake its periods, but very rarely mistake genuine (as antique) and fake (as recent).
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby needaTEAcher » Jan 30th, '14, 18:55

I just want to weigh in on this conversation here about replicas.

In all my back and forth between East and West, this is an area where I have noticed that we simply have differing concepts of reality. The idea of replica seems to bring to Western minds shadows of "falseness" or of something being a "fake".

Whereas my understanding of art and creation in China, particularly teapots, is that these replicas are closer to homage, more of a way of showing respect for tradition and working within the strict confines of what expression/creation is allowed. I think the how the West might look at a teapot and call it a fake would baffle many Chinese, sometimes even the artist/counterfeiter.

Also, reality seems to be manifold in China, with many, many "truths" that conflict and collide existing side by side. So maybe it is homage, maybe it is a counterfeit, maybe it's both simultaneously. I hope this all makes sense.

BTW, great pics squaretooth. Thanks for sharing. :)
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby bagua7 » Jan 30th, '14, 20:13

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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby kikula » Jan 30th, '14, 22:41

needaTEAcher wrote:"...In all my back and forth between East and West, this is an area where I have noticed that we simply have differing concepts of reality. The idea of replica seems to bring to Western minds shadows of "falseness" or of something being a "fake."...


A philosophy prof with whom I once studied wrote a lot about that. It was the same in the west until the Renaissance in Europe, which he disparagingly called 'The Birth of the Western Ego'. Early Medieval artists in Europe often didn't even sign their work and did much diligent copying; with the Renaissance came the glorification of the individual, idiosyncratic creativity, a sort of cult of originality and more competition, less collaboration and cooperation. Much innovation came (and comes) from that, but also much was lost I think.
I had a friend from China once, studying medicine here in the US, who was pleased to see a young person wearing a tee-shirt that said, "Question Authority!".
"That's like the tradition at home", she said. "When we have a problem, we seek out an experienced authority for help. I thought young Americans didn't like that so much." It was difficult to explain that it actually meant, "Doubt, Mistrust and Challenge Authority".
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby Tead Off » Jan 30th, '14, 23:18

needaTEAcher wrote:I just want to weigh in on this conversation here about replicas.

In all my back and forth between East and West, this is an area where I have noticed that we simply have differing concepts of reality. The idea of replica seems to bring to Western minds shadows of "falseness" or of something being a "fake".

Whereas my understanding of art and creation in China, particularly teapots, is that these replicas are closer to homage, more of a way of showing respect for tradition and working within the strict confines of what expression/creation is allowed. I think the how the West might look at a teapot and call it a fake would baffle many Chinese, sometimes even the artist/counterfeiter.

Also, reality seems to be manifold in China, with many, many "truths" that conflict and collide existing side by side. So maybe it is homage, maybe it is a counterfeit, maybe it's both simultaneously. I hope this all makes sense.

BTW, great pics squaretooth. Thanks for sharing. :)

In the antiquities world, there are 2 types of replicas. The first is done as an homage and is sold as such. If it is exceptional, it will fetch a higher price than one that is not as well done. Makes sense, right?

The second is made to be a counterfeit and fool the buyer into thinking that the original artist made it. The workmanship can be at any level, but the intention behind it is clear.

The above applies to the artist or his representative. Then, there are those who will buy an homage and claim that it is the real thing. Or, not say anything at all and let the buyer decide their fate. The marketplace is full of all these types. Caveat Emptor.

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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby chrl42 » Jan 31st, '14, 00:10

Authority sellers can't fool customers, if they do it's bad marking on their reputations but there are cases they sell pots twice or more pricey than other sellers. And there are authority buyers who don't do that, those sellers are usually booked with bunch of customers who are eager to buy their pots. (you can pretty much assume 'they' won't have financial problems as long as Yixing exists :mrgreen: )

If anyone can provide, authority auctions like Bao-li or Jia-de, have sold fake goods, let me know :) in my logics which is not quite possible since they are run by China-HK-Taiwan's greatest authorities.


Buying and appreciating antique Yixing is not only buying their periods, more likely it's buying their quality, it's not applied to any Chinese antiques but strictly to Yixing teapots. Hence IF Yixing replicas are equipped with good quality, it must be still buyable (if prices are ok). But the truth is it's VERY hard to get good Yixing replicas as well (these days), the reason I already stated in earlier post.

How to anthenticate Yixing fake & good.....seals are the least considering factor..keypoint is firing and clay. Old Yixings were fired in wood-kiln called the Dragon Kiln and many fake goods come with gas kilns. The effect of firing is more clear on delicate clay like Zhuni,

Another, the most important factor is, clay. High-quality Zhuni is already gone, liking antique Zhuni is the day when one realizes what is 'high-quality' Zhuni. Hongni, on the other hand, high-quaity Qing dynasty Hongni (as Mt. Huanglong's), has been used in early Factory-1 years and by some master potters works as well. Old Zhuni/Hongni tends to have ok porosity, modern Zhuni don't breathe (so it's harder to care).......it's just my opinions, please don't tackle :lol:
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby kikula » Jan 31st, '14, 00:59

Ya. Teadoff made the distinction that makes all the difference.
True for any art.
Interesting book touching on all that as regards poetry in the west, called The Anxiety of Influence, but I wander OT again and will have my tea, and sleep.
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby TIM » Jan 31st, '14, 01:17

kyarazen wrote:don't forget the chinese's love for making replicas. 明朝复宋,清朝复明,民国复清,等等。(simple translation : ming dynasty people made objects in song dynasty style, etc..) this is seen across all sorts of chinese art works, porcelain, pottery.

and if one thinks that he/she is smart after reading a bunch of books or studying some reference objects in museums/in collectors hands, like how Qiu Xiao Jun says, the counterfeiter or replica maker is just as smart, he probably would have read the same books, and know even more than the consumer :lol: :lol:

a recent section in a local "store" that had been selling ming jia and qing dynasty pots was pulled recently after being in business for over a decade.. i wonder why :lol: :lol:


Well, same as aloeswood or kyara. Chinese artist been making art replicas for a long time, the difference of making a replica art object to a commercial subject like aloeswood is to make money by cheating people than to education. Artist make replica to learn what the previous generation knows. Business people make fake to make money from unaware enthusiasts.
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby kyarazen » Jan 31st, '14, 11:28

TIM wrote:Well, same as aloeswood or kyara. Chinese artist being making art replicas for a long time, the difference of making a replica art object to a commercial subject like aloeswood is to make money by cheating people than to education. Artist make replica to learn what the previous generation knows. Business people make fake to make money from unaware enthusiasts.

heh. i used to (currently still) run an pure education website on aloeswood/agarwood/kyara. but there are some areas where i refuse to write about, and perhaps its almost time to stop writing too much in detail, its making the business people too smart. especially those in the west.

do you have any records of ming/qing dynasty fake agarwood/kyara? :lol: :lol: agarwood faking is only a matter of recent decades (based on research with several multi-generation agarwood traders), unless there's a good amount of dishonesty going on in hongkong which predates this.

i've also asked for fun, and gotten my friends to ask their root gurus about agarwood usage and types in the tibetan tradition :mrgreen:
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby kyarazen » Jan 31st, '14, 11:55

its not difficult to become an authority seller if one is a pioneer usually.. but how one covers up the stories for so long is a matter of experience etc

yixing can be approached from many directions, but as a tea drinker, the effect of the pot on the brew is more important than the aesthetic... whilst on the other hand for the art appreciators, the aesthetic is more important than functionality

the only thing i can add an input on, is that technology is now ready to allow the replication of any purple clay material if anyone is seriously into it, replication of the aesthetic is also possible either via manual handicraft of all the "dai4-gong1" experts or through modern means.

i'm ok with appreciating ancient stuff or early generation stuff as an form of art, but to use it into tea application, particularly stuff that is from late qing and before has its risks. Xu xiu tang commented in a book he wrote that heavy metals, particularly lead was key in getting the beautiful colors in glazes of ceramics etc, but the actual toxicity was only realized probably half a century ago which led to its disuse. similarly the lovely colored cinnabar, "zhu-sha"/mercury sulfide that was commonly used in tibetan incense, medicine, chinese medicine, was thought to be really therapeutic, precious etc and was added into very many things. tibetan paintings used lovely shades of red, ochre which were arsenic oxides in different oxidation states..

so unless if anyone has specially arranged for atomic spec analysis of their old tea ware, it can be russian roulette to brew tea using these equipments.

you're probably right about the zhuni based on what i have been researching on. modern zhunis, due to very fine particle size and ultra high firing, often lead to silica fusing to become "glassy", reducing the porosity.. and incidentally, will result in a vessel that will no longer be able to catalytically influence tea.

chrl42 wrote:Authority sellers can't fool customers, if they do it's bad marking on their reputations but there are cases they sell pots twice or more pricey than other sellers. And there are authority buyers who don't do that, those sellers are usually booked with bunch of customers who are eager to buy their pots. (you can pretty much assume 'they' won't have financial problems as long as Yixing exists :mrgreen: )

If anyone can provide, authority auctions like Bao-li or Jia-de, have sold fake goods, let me know :) in my logics which is not quite possible since they are run by China-HK-Taiwan's greatest authorities.


Buying and appreciating antique Yixing is not only buying their periods, more likely it's buying their quality, it's not applied to any Chinese antiques but strictly to Yixing teapots. Hence IF Yixing replicas are equipped with good quality, it must be still buyable (if prices are ok). But the truth is it's VERY hard to get good Yixing replicas as well (these days), the reason I already stated in earlier post.

How to anthenticate Yixing fake & good.....seals are the least considering factor..keypoint is firing and clay. Old Yixings were fired in wood-kiln called the Dragon Kiln and many fake goods come with gas kilns. The effect of firing is more clear on delicate clay like Zhuni,

Another, the most important factor is, clay. High-quality Zhuni is already gone, liking antique Zhuni is the day when one realizes what is 'high-quality' Zhuni. Hongni, on the other hand, high-quaity Qing dynasty Hongni (as Mt. Huanglong's), has been used in early Factory-1 years and by some master potters works as well. Old Zhuni/Hongni tends to have ok porosity, modern Zhuni don't breathe (so it's harder to care).......it's just my opinions, please don't tackle :lol:
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby TIM » Jan 31st, '14, 11:57

kyarazen wrote:
TIM wrote:Well, same as aloeswood or kyara. Chinese artist being making art replicas for a long time, the difference of making a replica art object to a commercial subject like aloeswood is to make money by cheating people than to education. Artist make replica to learn what the previous generation knows. Business people make fake to make money from unaware enthusiasts.


heh. i used to (currently still) run an pure education website on aloeswood/agarwood/kyara. but there are some areas where i refuse to write about, and perhaps its almost time to stop writing too much in detail, its making the business people too smart. especially those in the west.

do you have any records of ming/qing dynasty fake agarwood/kyara? :lol: :lol: agarwood faking is only a matter of recent decades (based on research with several multi-generation agarwood traders), unless there's a good amount of dishonesty going on in hongkong which predates this.

i've also asked for fun, and gotten my friends to ask their root gurus about agarwood usage and types in the tibetan tradition :mrgreen:


Oh, I thought you are in the agarwood business, Kyarazen?
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Re: Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

Postby kyarazen » Jan 31st, '14, 12:28

TIM wrote:
kyarazen wrote:
TIM wrote:Well, same as aloeswood or kyara. Chinese artist being making art replicas for a long time, the difference of making a replica art object to a commercial subject like aloeswood is to make money by cheating people than to education. Artist make replica to learn what the previous generation knows. Business people make fake to make money from unaware enthusiasts.


heh. i used to (currently still) run an pure education website on aloeswood/agarwood/kyara. but there are some areas where i refuse to write about, and perhaps its almost time to stop writing too much in detail, its making the business people too smart. especially those in the west.

do you have any records of ming/qing dynasty fake agarwood/kyara? :lol: :lol: agarwood faking is only a matter of recent decades (based on research with several multi-generation agarwood traders), unless there's a good amount of dishonesty going on in hongkong which predates this.

i've also asked for fun, and gotten my friends to ask their root gurus about agarwood usage and types in the tibetan tradition :mrgreen:


Oh, I thought you are in the agarwood business, Kyarazen?


nope. not in the business. which is why i'm so liberal about talking about faking technologies, and clear cut bluntness whenever anyone asks me to verify stuffs for them.

if i'm running a business... why would i ruin it by exposing these secrets? :lol: :lol:
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