Young sheng health hazards?


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Young sheng health hazards?

Postby Jagori » Jun 10th, '08, 14:08

I just recently read that it's "common knowledge" that drinking young sheng is bad for your stomach and possibly kidneys. However common this knowledge might be, I'd never heard of it before yesterday, and I can't find much info on it. I haven't noticed any problems when drinking young sheng, but I don't want to cause myself long-term health issues. Can someone fill me in on this?

[edit] I should probably link to where I found this. One was on MarshalN's Blog, and the other was on a livejournal community.
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Postby MarshalN » Jun 11th, '08, 00:56

I see I am referenced :)

I think it's common knowledge among Chinese, less so among Westerners. You won't find much on this subject... but I think almost any Chinese doctor will tell you that...
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Postby Beidao » Jun 11th, '08, 04:38

Is it proved or is it just "general knowledge"? Cause I don't trust general knowledge at all.
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Postby chrl42 » Jun 11th, '08, 10:49

Beidao wrote:Is it proved or is it just "general knowledge"? Cause I don't trust general knowledge at all.


As Marshal said, it's not only general knowledge among tea people but also statement by doctors.

Could it be characteritics of Yunnan Big bud type, more if it is of wild trees, second is Puerh does not go through the stage of being agonized from heats.
Tea trees are basically 'cold' to body, if my expression was right..
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Postby Dizzwave » Jun 11th, '08, 12:03

I've been curious about this lately too, and asking around to make sure that I'm not killing myself any faster by drinking young sheng on a near daily basis.

There doesn't seem to be any hard and fast conclusion out there, but common sense probably applies as usual. Don't drink any caffeinated beverage on an empty stomach, and drink water often. I find that young sheng is much kinder to my body and mind than black/red tea or coffee, but I still have to eat breakfast first. :)

I think it's common knowledge that coffee is not very healthy either (especially for your stomach), but in moderation it won't kill you. The same could be said for all kinds of imbibables.

I asked a Chinese friend of mine whether tea was more healthy than coffee, and he said "Well of course." A few months later, I discovered ginseng, and asked him if it was more healthy than tea. "Well of course." :)
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Postby silverneedles » Jun 12th, '08, 16:19

what doctors?
any studies that prove "health benefits" (not based on questionnaires)?
any studies that show puerh is 'bad' for the stomach or kidneys?

i drink anything on an empty stomach and never had any problems...(but i dont extrapolate that to other people)

if coffee stimulates acid secretion in the stomach there are enough protection mechanisms to prevent acid from eating into tissue(ulcer). If that doesn't work good, then coffee is not your problem...

in any case,

tea is not going to be the worst thing in your diet (there's still the air we breathe, food we eat, drink, etc, since we were young) .... and tea won't be the one that "saves you from whatever disease"...
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Postby Geekgirl » Jun 12th, '08, 17:33

this is kind of a TCM (traditional chinese medicine) thing. For instance, green tea is cooling, so if you have a "warm" or "hot" constitution, more green teas are recommended, as well as cooling herbs like mint. Black teas, because of the introduction of oxidation and roasting, are regarded as "warming" teas, as well as herbs like ginger or capsicum. Thus black teas, chais and certain warming herbals are recommended for "cold" constitutions.

There are many more considerations just as which preparation methods are going to have draining effects, and which will tonify the system. Which clear heat and reduce dampness, and which can reduce phlegm (congealed dampness to the chinese.)

Certain in-between teas, like young sheng or some green oolongs have very strong effects on the system, thus are more commonly used in medicinal formulas. A TCM master is going to be very selective of when to use such formulas, and not prescribe them for a long period of time. Old growth spring picked teas can be decocted into a formula that purges the system (stomach qi rises instead of descends.)

Stomach qi should always descend in good health, and these young teas with erratic qi, when drunk on a daily basis can wreak havoc on the digestive system, cause anxiety (a manifestation of stomach qi issues,) weaken the spleen (TCM version of nutritive system,) and lead to a "damp, phlegmmy" constitution.

Phew. That's the short, completely bollixed up American version of cha in TCM.
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Postby chrl42 » Jun 12th, '08, 22:01

GeekgirlUnveiled wrote:this is kind of a TCM (traditional chinese medicine) thing. For instance, green tea is cooling, so if you have a "warm" or "hot" constitution, more green teas are recommended, as well as cooling herbs like mint. Black teas, because of the introduction of oxidation and roasting, are regarded as "warming" teas, as well as herbs like ginger or capsicum. Thus black teas, chais and certain warming herbals are recommended for "cold" constitutions.

There are many more considerations just as which preparation methods are going to have draining effects, and which will tonify the system. Which clear heat and reduce dampness, and which can reduce phlegm (congealed dampness to the chinese.)

Certain in-between teas, like young sheng or some green oolongs have very strong effects on the system, thus are more commonly used in medicinal formulas. A TCM master is going to be very selective of when to use such formulas, and not prescribe them for a long period of time. Old growth spring picked teas can be decocted into a formula that purges the system (stomach qi rises instead of descends.)

Stomach qi should always descend in good health, and these young teas with erratic qi, when drunk on a daily basis can wreak havoc on the digestive system, cause anxiety (a manifestation of stomach qi issues,) weaken the spleen (TCM version of nutritive system,) and lead to a "damp, phlegmmy" constitution.

Phew. That's the short, completely bollixed up American version of cha in TCM.


Well done, GU!
That was TCM thingy indead, I didn't know western hospitals specialized in such category. In addition to TCM comments, young leaves just plucked are usually poisoneous by nature, in wanting to survive and protect their breed. And wild grown trees show even more of that characteritics - and that was justification from Puerh tea tree cultivators for not having wild grown one.

That characteritics could be killed if roasted at very high temperature but then also leads to scorching, so it requires some skills to make green teas that come easy on your stomach in fact.
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Postby Geekgirl » Jun 12th, '08, 22:14

chrl42 wrote:Well done, GU!
That was TCM thingy indead, I didn't know western hospitals specialized in such category.


Thanks! Western medicine doesn't consider these things. I've studied the basics of Chinese medicine as part of my Asian bodywork training, it's so fascinating.
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Postby silverneedles » Jun 13th, '08, 00:31

alot of plants have mechanisms to protect themselves from being eaten by certain bugs... that doesn't make them poisonous to other species...but some are

so if you know of any poisonous chemicals in puerh leaf i'm sure you can do service to the many people reading this forum and disclose such information :)

and western hospitals do specialize in such category = taking care of "folk medicine" "patients" who get even more sick by not following proper treatment...(just recently a person following some Chinese Traditional Medicine injected what turned out to be animal hormone and ended up in the hospital bleeding. "Western" medical doctors had to figure out what this person was doing, because the person continued this "treatment"...)

No, i'm not against folk medicine - as long as it doesn't interfere with proven treatments or harm people.
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Postby Geekgirl » Jun 13th, '08, 01:02

silverneedles wrote:
No, i'm not against folk medicine - as long as it doesn't interfere with proven treatments or harm people.


Well that is a whole other debate. Eastern medicine vs. Western, and which one causes more harm... you know, ground up beetles vs. phenfen... evening primrose oil vs. hormone replacement therapy... sheng puer vs. diet coke... oops. Probably best left for another forum.

The question of whether young sheng is hard on the constitution is best queried from an eastern perspective and also best answered from an eastern perspective.
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Postby silverneedles » Jun 13th, '08, 01:13

well, someone just said: young puerh is bad for you.
that needs to be clarified, otherwise people get the wrong idea.

i'd appreciate some better explanation other than "you won't understand because you don't believe, so.... no pu for you" type of stuff...
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Postby Salsero » Jun 13th, '08, 01:35

I'm considering that MarshalN tells us that it is common knowledge and yet he was on a diet of young sheng most every day for a year or two, so I'm not too worried yet. Also, MarshalN has complained of feeling bad from sheng, and I have never experienced any upset as a result of my modest consumption of one young sheng session every day or two.

So I'm proceeding to consume pu based on two assumptions:
    1) if it is bad, I don't think most of us in the US are getting near the dose to do us harm, and
    2) if it is harming me, my body will grumble before it crumples.
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Postby chrl42 » Jun 13th, '08, 07:33

Salsero wrote:I'm considering that MarshalN tells us that it is common knowledge and yet he was on a diet of young sheng most every day for a year or two, so I'm not too worried yet. Also, MarshalN has complained of feeling bad from sheng, and I have never experienced any upset as a result of my modest consumption of one young sheng session every day or two.

So I'm proceeding to consume pu based on two assumptions:
    1) if it is bad, I don't think most of us in the US are getting near the dose to do us harm, and
    2) if it is harming me, my body will grumble before it crumples.


I agree, and I don't think there is any eternally ideal eatery known to exist.

My uncle ate lots of ginseng when he was young, as a result his body was overwhelmed by heats even when he became an adult and he has to turn on air conditional 24/7 no matter where he goes.
A person who consumes too much vitamins will get hypervitaminosis.

And my will is no matter how teas can do me harm, I will keep drinking it if it doesn't kill me :(
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Postby Proinsias » Jun 13th, '08, 08:57

silverneedles:

It's Eastern vs Western medicine. It appears you would like any statement made on the basis of TCM to be backed up with the criteria demanded by western medicine, I don't think this is going to happen.

If every Western medicine had to be checked to be holistically, not locally, good then many western treatments would be dumped as disproven under the criteria used by TCM.

It's like trying to evaluate religion using the methods of science. Or saying you will accept the claims of TCM when they are published in a peer reviewed western science journal.

I don't see the point in the animal hormone story, I'm sure I could provide numerous examples of western medicine failing spectacularly. Thalidomide or TCM for morning sickness?

I tend to be drawn to teas which everyone seems to agree are fairly good for me at the time I'm drinking them - aside from maybe my preference for darker teas in the evening and lighter ones during the day. I have occasional affairs with things like young sheng, even then I often brew them lightly with cooler water.

TCM has had a far more intimate and lengthy history with tea than western medicine so I'm prepared to listen to, and take into account unless it goes against my own experience, the views it provides.

silverneedles wrote:any studies that show puerh is 'bad' for the stomach or kidneys?


Marshaln's blog?
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