Young sheng health hazards?


One of the intentionally aged teas, Pu-Erh has a loyal following.

Postby silverneedles » Jun 13th, '08, 09:48

so....... any claims on "health hazards of tea" are based only on Eastern Medicine knowledge - by which some tea sometimes makes a disturbance in the yin-yang

COFSM

You can give me any kind of "failure" by western medicine and i can show you (most of the time) that the bad application was discontinued because it was harming people(such as thalidomide+pregnancy), eg science evolves and develops forward. (also i'll show you that whatever 'medicine' the bleeding person was taking, its 'prescribed' use won't stop.)

On the other hand i'm curious: what doctor you recommend to a person with heart attack ... east or west?

like the coasts of the USA, West(LA...me) meets the East(NYC...which i kinda like more than LA...except that i cant find many tea stores)
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Postby chrl42 » Jun 13th, '08, 10:27

silverneedles wrote:so....... any claims on "health hazards of tea" are based only on Eastern Medicine knowledge - by which some tea sometimes makes a disturbance in the yin-yang

COFSM

You can give me any kind of "failure" by western medicine and i can show you (most of the time) that the bad application was discontinued because it was harming people(such as thalidomide+pregnancy), eg science evolves and develops forward. (also i'll show you that whatever 'medicine' the bleeding person was taking, its 'prescribed' use won't stop.)

On the other hand i'm curious: what doctor you recommend to a person with heart attack ... east or west?

like the coasts of the USA, West(LA...me) meets the East(NYC...which i kinda like more than LA...except that i cant find many tea stores)


You are totally misunderstanding TCM. Way of seeing a subject can be very different from western view.

I have an experience in fact, I was young and I had unknown disorder on my legs that I could not move em, if I tried to make em moving it hurt like a hell.
I went to hugest hospital in my city, doctors diagnosed and couldn't found out the clue. So concluded to go for a huge operation, I was young..scared like a pussy cat.
So I went to CTM hospital just because I didn't want an operation..2 hrs of sleeping I was cured.

But that is just one situation that should never be exaggarated.

I am hardly medicinal expert, but from what I know, CTM focuses on prevention, rather than curing. And it needs understanding of body, it would never understand using of artificial chemicals that could eventually ruin the body. It's also philosophical as yin and yang stuff...CTM was developed by taoists in fact.

And western doctors would think any thing they are doing, considered to be idiotic too.

There is no denial that West evolved their medicinal technology more than East. And no one on this forum denied that.
But what you are doing, silverneedles, little 'over-reacting', I don't see how hazards in Puerh leaves can lead to conclusion of western or eastern superiority.

On the other thought, maybe what we really need is to have a little ear for..culture that is not the same?
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Postby silverneedles » Jun 13th, '08, 10:44

thanks, but i am trying to understand ... and yes i am ...mildly...over-reacting... as previous posts somehow implied tea leaf is poisonous.
... chrl42: "young leaves just plucked are usually poisoneous by nature"
... and the first one saying its bad for the kidneys... i surely would want to know about that because i don't wanna go on dialysis.

i have a couple speculative diagnoses about your legs and it doesn't involve any surgery :) ... surgery is not done *just to do something*
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Postby Proinsias » Jun 13th, '08, 10:56

To take it to the extreme:

Wasn't that western doctor great for fixing me up after I had a heart attack from drinking all that young sheng.

My understanding is that if you have a heart attack then TCM has kind of failed and it's time for western medicine to step in.

My personal experience of western medicine over the past 5 years has led me to doubt it's use in many cases. Antibiotics being over-prescribed are creating very unpleasant situations for humans, does it undermine western medicine if I tell you that my last two doctors have blatantly over-prescribed antibiotics - possibly doing more long term damage to the human race than the odd case of injecting people with weird hormones.
My grandfather-in-law was taken into hospital last night because the antibiotics he is on have killed off most stuff in his oral cavity aside from thrush, which has taken over his mouth and chest cavity and may well be killing him -western medicine has it's up's and down's, as does eastern.
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Postby Proinsias » Jun 13th, '08, 11:03

x post.

silverneedles wrote:surgery is not done *just to do something*


It's done because a doctor thinks it will help, like when western doctors bled people because they thought it helped or when they cut bits out of the brains of people with psychological disorders.

It's done because there is no better option known, it would seem in the case of chrl42 a better option was known just not by the hospital that was advising surgery.
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Postby silverneedles » Jun 13th, '08, 11:45

well, due to lawsuits and such there is an over-prescribing of medication and testing ... just to cover any possible little piece of which may bring forth a nice lawsuit.

people are still bled and it is a proven treatment for 1 or 2 diseases.

brain pieces are still cut out because it solves a problem - epilepsy/tumor etc which can present as seemingly psychiatric diseases. Some psychiatric disease has organic basis as a 'mis-wiring' of neurons/brain regions or cellular malfunction.

Medicine (W) has at its basis prevention. Alot of diseases have treatment guidelines that start with 'lifestyle changes' (ex: hypertension, or dont eat burgers, soda, fried meat, the overweight problem etc). Unfortunately because people don't follow medical advice or don't go to the doctor at all, preventive medicine as a specialty is pretty small. Compliance is a big problem in medicine.

People like to do their own thing, then when it gets too bad they go to the W doctor and demand a fix.
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Postby ABx » Jun 13th, '08, 13:18

silverneedles wrote:so....... any claims on "health hazards of tea" are based only on Eastern Medicine knowledge
I tend to think that this is the heart of the problem, and not eastern vs western philosophies. The thing is that puerh is almost completely unknown outside of the east. Go ask your [western] doctor if young sheng is bad for you; his response will be a blank stare, not a well-thought argument about the lack of evidence. Even after you explain it to him or her, you're still likely to get something along the lines of "I have no idea."

There could be a dozen sheng drinkers in treatment right now imbibing the very thing that is harming them and you'd never know. Maybe it does and maybe it doesn't. My guess is that it's probably along the lines of drinking a ton of over-brewed cheap coffee every day, perhaps a bit worse since there are more chemicals, but we aren't likely to see any western studies done until puerh becomes popular enough to warrant further studies. Until then we'll just have to look to the east for some clues. If you can read Chinese you might be able to find some hard science on the subject.
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Postby Jagori » Jun 13th, '08, 19:40

This discussion has been pretty interesting. I think I'm inclined to err on the side of caution. It may not give me problems as I drink it, but I've already experienced one case of developing a problem (repeated exposure to epoxy -> sensitized skin) that didn't really bother me as it was happening, so I'm a bit paranoid.

I suppose if nothing else, it gives me an excuse: "but I need to buy these aged pu-erhs! The stuff I have now might be toxic!" ;)
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Postby brandon » Jun 13th, '08, 20:19

I have Crohn's disease, so my intestines are already screwed up. I am not all that wild about young sheng anyway, so I rarely drink it. I am not afraid to have a session every now and then if the mood really strikes.

So what I meant to ask, Bears tells me that because of the above I prefer "warm" teas, but how does one decide if they are a hot or cold person?

Also, are sencha (steamed) or dragonwell (pan roasted) still "cold"?
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Postby chrl42 » Jun 13th, '08, 22:22

TomVerlain wrote:This is very intersting reading. I have a few points -

1) Exactly what is considered young sheng ? Spring 2008 ? 2007 ? 1999 ?

2) In what quantity is sheng "dangerous" ? 5 grams brewed over the course of several hours ? A Half a beeng a day ?

3) Shou seems to be capable of being a killer - looks like everything I like is bad for me - see link
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/jun/13/medicalresearch?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront (Aspergillus is the fungus used to "cook" shou)

My personal experience is occaisonally if I drink several pots of various 2007 shengs, I do feel a bit queasy if I have not eaten anything at all. I find it a bit of an appiteit suppresant. If I drank just water and did not eat anything over the same period in time, I most likely would have a terrible head ache and feel bad anyhow.

1 - I cannot answer this one, since I am not so familiar with Puerh. Having 30-yr-old Sheng can cost one semester at community college. But telling from what I heard, 10-yr is starting point then yrs later it will turn 陳年 puerh, vintage one.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

2 - I've seen dozens of Sheng holics who went to hospital over drinking in China and Korea..5 to 10 gram a day? these people are one who never drink other teas but Sheng, and then TCM thingy started on them.

3 - True, lots of germs are born during speed-fermenting. So sterilizers are used to kill those germs, but problem is those sterilizers can be even more harmful to body.

silverneedles wrote:thanks, but i am trying to understand ... and yes i am ...mildly...over-reacting... as previous posts somehow implied tea leaf is poisonous.
... chrl42: "young leaves just plucked are usually poisoneous by nature"
... and the first one saying its bad for the kidneys... i surely would want to know about that because i don't wanna go on dialysis.

i have a couple speculative diagnoses about your legs and it doesn't involve any surgery :) ... surgery is not done *just to do something*

Heh, I am so sorry that I told you that..

I should find out that TCM doctor telling him, "unbelieving friend of US and A sworn me those mechanisms won't be trusted in civilized countries..." and guess what? I will report you back if I get an answer :wink:
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Postby silverneedles » Jun 13th, '08, 23:09

TomVerlain:

as far as i understand, the aspergillus used in puerh fermentation is not the same species that produces dangerous mycotoxins.

I have still asked tea industry people about the aspergillus issue - and they said there is no known problem with the fungus or any known happenings that it has caused problems. There is also a Tea and Coffee magazine i have asked them to investigate into any potential fungal issues or toxin issues related to tea, and recently i was contacted that they are working on it (and again related that they are not really aware of any fungal problems with tea).
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Postby insanitylater » Jun 14th, '08, 11:55

can't really add much to this thread but i thought it might be a good place to ask if anyone could recommend a traditional chinese medicine book (in english please) ? even if i could find an informative website i probably couldn't read it :lol:
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Postby maxman » Jun 14th, '08, 23:25

"The 47-year-old welder from Buckinghamshire, who has not been named, died in intensive care a week after being engulfed by "clouds of dust" when he opened bags of rotting plant material that had been left to fester"

Sounds like he kind of over did it on the aspergillus. The article goes on to say only large quanitities are harmful.
I think you could harm yourself by breathing in "large clouds" of any kind of powder.
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Postby Geekgirl » Jun 15th, '08, 00:39

insanitylater wrote:can't really add much to this thread but i thought it might be a good place to ask if anyone could recommend a traditional chinese medicine book (in english please) ? even if i could find an informative website i probably couldn't read it :lol:


The definitive TCM book for Westerners is usually "The Web That Has No Weaver" (Kaptchuk.) It's still confusing. :lol: I also liked another book called "Between Heaven and Earth" (Beinfield & Korngold,) although this one winds up a bit out in diet-hell with some truly gag-worthy recipes and diet modification. Up until the how-to part though, it give a pretty good Western-decipherable explanation.

One of my all-time favorite Eastern philosophy books (very easy and short :lol: ) is called "A Brief History of Qi" (pun intended) by Ken Rose and Zhuan Yu Huan. I think I started to "get it" much more after reading that one, even though it's not really TCM-centric.
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