Need help to identify zhuni clay purity

[hop_goblin]

HG -- the joint line does NOT have to be present for a pot to be zhuni. Rather, the joint line is sometimes a sign that it was a piece made purely by hand, rather than a mould or slipcast. HOWEVER, the joint line is VERY EASILY FAKED. So all in all, the joint line doesn't mean much of anything. I've seen many, many faked pots in Taiwan that have a joint line.

Also, joint lines are not unique to zhuni pots. Zisha pots also have jointlines. Modern pots also have jointlines too, except it is now common practice to smooth the surface out so that the joint line is not really visible to the naked eye. In fact, if you make any sort of pottery that is moulded, you're probably going to have jointlines.

Marsh, the point I was making that it is very rare not to see a "genuine" Zhuni made with a paddled without a joint line as opposed to having it made on a wheel or slip cast. Yes, jointlines can be faked and often are but for the length of the conversation, it kept it relevant to the discussion that of genuine zhuni.

But yes, bette, Marsh is absolutly right.

[betta]

Hop, Marshalan,chrl42, thank you for your input. In fact, for me who just discover the pleasure of drinking tea 2 months ago, your input helps me way much than other resources on the web.
I also agree with Hop's other post, regardless whether the pot is 100% genuine zhuni or not, the most important is that it can be used to brew a good cup of tea

My initial startpoint is my fear of mixed or fake modern zhuni clay comprising lead and other dangerous material added to improve its aesthetic value.
At the same time I heard old zhuni pots made before the depletion of the raw material, like that of hop's, are far better than post depletion pots.
I paid my 'tuition of learning this truth' where I purchased couple of new zhuni pots from an e-bay seller
Driven by this, I intend to acquire 1-2 more old zhunis and learn how to distinguish genuine from made old zhuni and if possible also to distinguish whether the clay has been mixed with dangerous materials.
This week or probably next week my newest acquisition will arrive.
Do you mind give me a comment on the item once I post it here?

[tenuki]

I do intend to use the pot for oolong, especially high mountain formosa oolong.

I use a gaiwan for the gao shan ( high mountain ) formosa oolongs. A pot tends to mute some of the more delicate flavors and aromas. I only use pots on gao shan oolongs when I want to remove some of those fragrances or to bring out some of the other notes a bit more strongly.

In any event I would highly recommend brewing a new tea in a gaiwan first to get a baseline, then brew in the pot and pay attention to the difference.

[MarshalN]

Hop, it's just that given how many fake pots are out there, I felt it necessary to include that piece of info lest newer entrants to the teapot market think that jointlines = genuine zhuni. It does not, but it's something that is often mentioned as truth, so I just want to point that out.

Betta -- where did you buy the pots, if you don't mind revealing?

[betta]

Betta -- where did you buy the pots, if you don't mind revealing?

MarshalN, I won't share it open as it will 'trigger' negative impact to the seller.
I'll send you pm if you're really interested to know.

[scruffmcgruff]

Betta, I'm also interested. Could you PM me the store name too?

[hop_goblin]

Hop, it's just that given how many fake pots are out there, I felt it necessary to include that piece of info lest newer entrants to the teapot market think that jointlines = genuine zhuni. It does not, but it's something that is often mentioned as truth, so I just want to point that out.

Betta -- where did you buy the pots, if you don't mind revealing?

I stand corrected Marshn. Indeed, buying a new pot is terribly difficult.

[betta]

As spoken before, my latest acquisition:




An old 2mm thick pot, claimed to be made of pure true zhuni without mixed with any zisha clay.
The shrinkage and 'muscle' line are visible on entire surface of the pot, in fact the shrinkage is quite horrible that on the base of the pot, horizontal shrinkage in and out of the pot is visible.
The pot is not yet seasoned however it's quite smooth and creamy.
Very high pitch and clear tapping sound, even higher and clearer than that purchased from houde.
Single spout and visible joint line in the pot and the lid.
Don't understand the chinese character down the pot, any explanation is appreciated.
I acquired it from another collector and he estimated the age of the pot is at least 30 years, especially from the workmanship, but the clay might have been stored very long and far older than the age of the pot.
Please guys, help me out and give some hints and comments whether it is authentic zhuni or aged red clay

[Salsero]

Well, it is beautiful enough to be loved for itself alone, but I guess that's not a real collector's point of view. How could it be 30 years old and still look so clean?

[chrl42]

I am not much of a zishahu expert. But to my understanding, that's what I would choose in yixing store as a zhuni pot. If that is 30 years old, that might be produced from yixing factory no1 or no2. Which was mass manufacturing under cultural revolution. Somewhat rough finishing in a short time but with good yixing clay. Sorry for the letter on the bottom, I should study chinese more...

[betta]

Sal, I forgot to mentioned that it was originally covered by patina and it has been through multiple cleaning processes: slowboil in denture tabs and weak bleach solution for 1 hour each as suggested by the collector and additionally also with ultrasonic cleaner. Trace of patina can still be found inside the spout.

Chrl42, unfortunately I'm also confused, I thought it was produced by some unknown artist, there're very detail handcarving of phoenix with poem in chinese (not chopped) on the unusually long lid and at the base of the pot. It is definitely a reproduction but don't know if it is mass produced or if it is aged red clay.

The guy whom I usually asked about yixing says it is true zhuni and of a pure one but he didn't comment more on the rest as he is on his sabbathical leave for 6 months from tuesday.
Thanks for all responses.
I think now it is the time to stop the discussion since I think it can grow uncomfortably
Regardless whether it is true piece or not, as long as it contains no health threaten material, it is fine.

[hop_goblin]

Sal, I forgot to mentioned that it was originally covered by patina and it has been through multiple cleaning processes: slowboil in denture tabs and weak bleach solution for 1 hour each as suggested by the collector and additionally also with ultrasonic cleaner. Trace of patina can still be found inside the spout.

Chrl42, unfortunately I'm also confused, I thought it was produced by some unknown artist, there're very detail handcarving of phoenix with poem in chinese (not chopped) on the unusually long lid and at the base of the pot. It is definitely a reproduction but don't know if it is mass produced or if it is aged red clay.

The guy whom I usually asked about yixing says it is true zhuni and of a pure one but he didn't comment more on the rest as he is on his sabbathical leave for 6 months from tuesday.
Thanks for all responses.
I think now it is the time to stop the discussion since I think it can grow uncomfortably
Regardless whether it is true piece or not, as long as it contains no health threaten material, it is fine.

Hey Bette, I believe you are correct. It does appear to have the artist signature. I do not believe that it was made by either of the Yixing factories. Typically, those pots only have the number corresponding to the factory where it was produced.

The texture of the clay does resemble Zhuni. It does appear have a silkiness and the right physical marks. I do not believe that it is made of weathered Hongni as weathered Hongni generally does not look as silky as zhuni no matter how long the clay was stored. Also, it color does not correspond well with most weathered Hongni pots I have seen. By no means am expert , but these are my first impressions. Was this a personal or commercial acquisition?

[betta]

Hi Hop, you never fail to impress me with your knowledge in this field and also puerh (I see in your blog, very detail)
About your last post, actually you already know that your pot is the real thing isn't it?

It is personal acquisition from another collector in Germany. Unfortunately this guy doesn't speak much.

[hop_goblin]

Hi Hop, you never fail to impress me with your knowledge in this field and also puerh (I see in your blog, very detail)
About your last post, actually you already know that your pot is the real thing isn't it?

It is personal acquisition from another collector in Germany. Unfortunately this guy doesn't speak much.

Thank you for the Kuddos on my blog! I really appreciate that. Bette, it does look like a good buy. As for my pot, I am comfortable that it is a Zhuni Yixing pot. As for its claim of being an ErPu, I would suggest that there is no way of knowing. This is not to suggest that there are no indications that it is, but then again, there i no true way of knowing. Nontheless, it makes great tea and what I paid for it is on par as to what you would pay for a nicely made yixing pot.

[chrl42]

Hey Bette, I believe you are correct. It does appear to have the artist signature. I do not believe that it was made by either of the Yixing factories. Typically, those pots only have the number corresponding to the factory where it was produced.

Oops, I forgot the number on the lid. However, factory-produced pots also have stamps or signature on the bottom, too. Plus, since it's been introduced how factory teapots had been made, too many fake factory teapots are being sold nowadays(also the stamps). Still, I believe that's real zhuni teapot.

By the way, factory no.1 teapots aren't horrible at all as you might imagine.
Rather, teapots produced today can't revive the purity of Huang Lung mountain yixing clay(these days were under cultural revolution, that was how sought-after yixing clay had been introduced to mass production)
And that is why those pots are so rare today and being faked frequently.

I don't mean your pot is fake or made from yixing factory no.1, of course. I was just doing 1 percent of imagining out of 99 percent of centainty