Official what GREEN are you currently drinking?

[Tead Off]

This morning I'm drinking the last of my O-Cha Gyokuro Uji Gyoko-Hou. There was just a little bit left so I brewed it in my tiny appaloosa Kim Eung Chul pot. I've always thought of this unglazed porcelain pot as best for yancha, possibly because of the size, but I'm very pleased at how well the gyokuro turned out.

Interesting. I never would have thought of using that pot for gyokuro, but why not!

I've been drinking Thes du Japon gyokuro from Hoshino village, Yame. It is a Yamakai cultivar. To my great surprise it is a May, 2016 picking. Well worth trying. Smooth, tasty, with no shincha astringency.

Interesting, I thought Gyokuro was stored for +-4 months, to let it sit and mellow out, and then only sold in September October. Or is this a Sincha Gyokuro? i.e. Shaded Sincha.

People really need to stop coming up with new names for things. Shincha gyokuro? I googled this figuring what it was and I have no idea why hibiki-an is peddling their tea with this ridiculous name. Gyokuro by no means has to be stored and what they are peddling as "shincha gyokuro" is merely kabusecha. It almost seems like a marketing scam to me. Hibiki-an basically outs themselves on their page for kuradashi tea, showing that gyokuro isn't often aged. http://www.hibiki-an.com/contents.php/cnID/7

They state that basically no one does this (except them of course!). And yet, for some reason on their "shincha gyokuro" page they say that this is a way you can enjoy gyokuro now without having to wait, despite the fact that almost all of their gyokuro on their website is not kuradashi. Though, I'm not sure how much one can say that "no one else does this" considering one of the most popular brands of bottled green tea in Japan released a kuradashi version a few years back. Again, it all seems too much like marketing.

I'm not familiar with the way Hibiki-an markets their products, but to apply your reasoning to Thes du Japon, may be totally incorrect. They don't call their early released gyokuro 'shincha gyokuro'. And they make it a point to describe the full gyokuro processing in the case of this tea that I mentioned.

I first noticed the use of shincha gyokuro last year. Being someone who doesn't really care for most shincha sencha, I might think that 'new' gyokuro would also have some of that astringency that appears in normal shincha. But, that doesn't seem to be the case in the tea that I bought which is really quite good. Brewed correctly, it is refined, mellow, sweet and delicious. A real treat for gyokuro lovers. It is not a particularly deep, umami rich gyokuro, but very satisfying.

[Kevangogh]

Gyokuro is shaded under about 90% shade for about 3 weeks before harvest, kabusecha is only shaded by about 45% shade for 2 weeks. So the release date has nothing to do with whether it is labelled gyokuro or kabusecha, only the shading technique.

Gyokuro is harvested in late spring just like regular sencha/shincha. However, it's considered best if it is aged for about 3-4 months. You can drink it earlier than 3-4 months, but it will have a somewhat green taste to it and it's not at it's peak. Gyokuro from the previous year will often run out before the fall. When that happens, they can do several things. They can blend some of last year's gyokuro with some of this years gyokuro which has not aged 3-4 months - that is often done. Or, they can sell gyokuro early - nothing wrong with that, but just be aware it's not at it's peak yet. Here we are in July, if it was a choice between pure 2016 gyokuro or pure 2015 gyokuro, you would usually be better to choose last year's version. I've got customers who are freaked out about buying 2015 green tea right now when actually, it might actually be better.

Aging gyokuro for 3-4 months is the "norm", it's what they should do, it doesn't make it special. It also won't be that much of a disappointment if you drink this year's gyokuro in July or August, only that it won't be at it's peak.

[daidokorocha]

This morning I'm drinking the last of my O-Cha Gyokuro Uji Gyoko-Hou. There was just a little bit left so I brewed it in my tiny appaloosa Kim Eung Chul pot. I've always thought of this unglazed porcelain pot as best for yancha, possibly because of the size, but I'm very pleased at how well the gyokuro turned out.

Interesting. I never would have thought of using that pot for gyokuro, but why not!

I've been drinking Thes du Japon gyokuro from Hoshino village, Yame. It is a Yamakai cultivar. To my great surprise it is a May, 2016 picking. Well worth trying. Smooth, tasty, with no shincha astringency.

Interesting, I thought Gyokuro was stored for +-4 months, to let it sit and mellow out, and then only sold in September October. Or is this a Sincha Gyokuro? i.e. Shaded Sincha.

People really need to stop coming up with new names for things. Shincha gyokuro? I googled this figuring what it was and I have no idea why hibiki-an is peddling their tea with this ridiculous name. Gyokuro by no means has to be stored and what they are peddling as "shincha gyokuro" is merely kabusecha. It almost seems like a marketing scam to me. Hibiki-an basically outs themselves on their page for kuradashi tea, showing that gyokuro isn't often aged. http://www.hibiki-an.com/contents.php/cnID/7

They state that basically no one does this (except them of course!). And yet, for some reason on their "shincha gyokuro" page they say that this is a way you can enjoy gyokuro now without having to wait, despite the fact that almost all of their gyokuro on their website is not kuradashi. Though, I'm not sure how much one can say that "no one else does this" considering one of the most popular brands of bottled green tea in Japan released a kuradashi version a few years back. Again, it all seems too much like marketing.

I'm not familiar with the way Hibiki-an markets their products, but to apply your reasoning to Thes du Japon, may be totally incorrect. They don't call their early released gyokuro 'shincha gyokuro'. And they make it a point to describe the full gyokuro processing in the case of this tea that I mentioned.

I first noticed the use of shincha gyokuro last year. Being someone who doesn't really care for most shincha sencha, I might think that 'new' gyokuro would also have some of that astringency that appears in normal shincha. But, that doesn't seem to be the case in the tea that I bought which is really quite good. Brewed correctly, it is refined, mellow, sweet and delicious. A real treat for gyokuro lovers. It is not a particularly deep, umami rich gyokuro, but very satisfying.

Perhaps you misunderstood me, but a lot of gyokuro is "shincha gyokuro" and most people would not call it "shincha gyokuro" because that is really just a made up name for marketing. It is only used if someone wants to clearly distinguish it from stored gyokuro, but really it is hardly necessary. After all, all gyokuro is "shincha gyokuro" at some point. Most people just refer to it as "gyokuro" and list the harvest date, as Thes du Japon has done. Or are you saying you are furthering my point of Hibiki-an's incorrect marketing with the examples from Thes du Japon? Because, certainly, the fact that Thes du Japon sells spring flush presumably right after picking and that they do not label it as "shincha gyokuro" points to the fact that "shincha gyokuro" isn't some special rare product as Hibiki-An says (but of course all their products are apparently special in some way) but indeed a regular thing.

If anyone has misunderstood me, what I am not saying is that there is no such thing as gyokuro that is picked in the shincha season (that would be all gyokuro), nor am I saying that anything that is called or sold as "shincha gyokuro" is not gyokuro but kabusecha. Perhaps the fact that I alluded to hibiki-an stating in smaller print that their shincha gyokuro is indeed kabusecha and thus not gyokuro caused confusion. Surely they could just be classifying gyokuro as a kabusecha (after all it is covered) but somehow I doubt this. But yes, it should not taste like "shincha" because "shincha" is not gyokuro. "Shincha gyokuro" should taste like... well, gyokuro. Because that is exactly what it is. Afterall, Shincha is technically not a tea, but a season. Besides, many Japanese sources claim that astringency is lower in Shincha anyhow.

As for whether or not gyokuro is better rested or not, it is hard to get into that discussion. Also, what is considered the "norm" is highly debateable. It is very easy to find a lot of sellers selling "shincha gyokuro", suggesting that it is fairly normal. A lot of Japanese tea is blended anyhow, so in the end most customers have no idea what they are really getting. I mean that as the average customer buying the average tea from the average vendor and not of course speciality vendors where you can get more detailed information about the tea.

[Tead Off]

This morning I'm drinking the last of my O-Cha Gyokuro Uji Gyoko-Hou. There was just a little bit left so I brewed it in my tiny appaloosa Kim Eung Chul pot. I've always thought of this unglazed porcelain pot as best for yancha, possibly because of the size, but I'm very pleased at how well the gyokuro turned out.

Interesting. I never would have thought of using that pot for gyokuro, but why not!

I've been drinking Thes du Japon gyokuro from Hoshino village, Yame. It is a Yamakai cultivar. To my great surprise it is a May, 2016 picking. Well worth trying. Smooth, tasty, with no shincha astringency.

Interesting, I thought Gyokuro was stored for +-4 months, to let it sit and mellow out, and then only sold in September October. Or is this a Sincha Gyokuro? i.e. Shaded Sincha.

People really need to stop coming up with new names for things. Shincha gyokuro? I googled this figuring what it was and I have no idea why hibiki-an is peddling their tea with this ridiculous name. Gyokuro by no means has to be stored and what they are peddling as "shincha gyokuro" is merely kabusecha. It almost seems like a marketing scam to me. Hibiki-an basically outs themselves on their page for kuradashi tea, showing that gyokuro isn't often aged. http://www.hibiki-an.com/contents.php/cnID/7

They state that basically no one does this (except them of course!). And yet, for some reason on their "shincha gyokuro" page they say that this is a way you can enjoy gyokuro now without having to wait, despite the fact that almost all of their gyokuro on their website is not kuradashi. Though, I'm not sure how much one can say that "no one else does this" considering one of the most popular brands of bottled green tea in Japan released a kuradashi version a few years back. Again, it all seems too much like marketing.

I'm not familiar with the way Hibiki-an markets their products, but to apply your reasoning to Thes du Japon, may be totally incorrect. They don't call their early released gyokuro 'shincha gyokuro'. And they make it a point to describe the full gyokuro processing in the case of this tea that I mentioned.

I first noticed the use of shincha gyokuro last year. Being someone who doesn't really care for most shincha sencha, I might think that 'new' gyokuro would also have some of that astringency that appears in normal shincha. But, that doesn't seem to be the case in the tea that I bought which is really quite good. Brewed correctly, it is refined, mellow, sweet and delicious. A real treat for gyokuro lovers. It is not a particularly deep, umami rich gyokuro, but very satisfying.

Perhaps you misunderstood me, but a lot of gyokuro is "shincha gyokuro" and most people would not call it "shincha gyokuro" because that is really just a made up name for marketing. It is only used if someone wants to clearly distinguish it from stored gyokuro, but really it is hardly necessary. After all, all gyokuro is "shincha gyokuro" at some point. Most people just refer to it as "gyokuro" and list the harvest date, as Thes du Japon has done. Or are you saying you are furthering my point of Hibiki-an's incorrect marketing with the examples from Thes du Japon? Because, certainly, the fact that Thes du Japon sells spring flush presumably right after picking and that they do not label it as "shincha gyokuro" points to the fact that "shincha gyokuro" isn't some special rare product as Hibiki-An says (but of course all their products are apparently special in some way) but indeed a regular thing.

If anyone has misunderstood me, what I am not saying is that there is no such thing as gyokuro that is picked in the shincha season (that would be all gyokuro), nor am I saying that anything that is called or sold as "shincha gyokuro" is not gyokuro but kabusecha. Perhaps the fact that I alluded to hibiki-an stating in smaller print that their shincha gyokuro is indeed kabusecha and thus not gyokuro caused confusion. Surely they could just be classifying gyokuro as a kabusecha (after all it is covered) but somehow I doubt this. But yes, it should not taste like "shincha" because "shincha" is not gyokuro. "Shincha gyokuro" should taste like... well, gyokuro. Because that is exactly what it is. Afterall, Shincha is technically not a tea, but a season. Besides, many Japanese sources claim that astringency is lower in Shincha anyhow.

As for whether or not gyokuro is better rested or not, it is hard to get into that discussion. Also, what is considered the "norm" is highly debateable. It is very easy to find a lot of sellers selling "shincha gyokuro", suggesting that it is fairly normal. A lot of Japanese tea is blended anyhow, so in the end most customers have no idea what they are really getting. I mean that as the average customer buying the average tea from the average vendor and not of course speciality vendors where you can get more detailed information about the tea.

Personally, I don't care if a vendor calls something shincha. To me, it just refers to that early period just after picking, about 2 months, where the teas often have an astringency that distinguish them from tea that is 'stored' for a period of time after processing. It's only misleading if the vendor claims a tea is such and such, but is really something else.

[daidokorocha]

Personally, I don't care if a vendor calls something shincha. To me, it just refers to that early period just after picking, about 2 months, where the teas often have an astringency that distinguish them from tea that is 'stored' for a period of time after processing. It's only misleading if the vendor claims a tea is such and such, but is really something else.

It is fine, of course, but places like Hibiki-an are obviously pulling a fast one using a revolving door of terminology. Could you elaborate more about the difference in astringency you perceive? You keep bringing it up but I am not entirely sure what you are referring to from your own personal experiences.

[Teaarch]

Starting to finish up some older teas today -- two senchas I put away, one about 2 or 3 months old, the other older. Both light steamed, both yabukita.

The first is O-cha's 2015 Ujibashi San no Ma. When I first had this months back I found it to be too light tasting and a bit too astringent as well. I didn't bring it out again until before I ordered the 2016 Kirameki, just to see how it would compare (I know O-cha says they're not the same exact tea, but still I thought it would be interesting). Turned the temp down from 176f to 166f and increased the leaf used and to my surprise it was much better, the astringency replaced by sweetness and much more flavor overall. Could've just been brewing this too hot at first, or the month or two stored away did it some good. Don't know. Brought it out again today thinking it would be too old, but to my surprise it was just as good or better, leaf's still a deep green and it smelled the same as I remember. Overall, a pretty good futsumushi.

The other tea I had was an organic from yuuki-cha called Kirishima no Kaori. This is one of their lower priced teas, and initially I didn't really like it at all. Very harsh notes of something a bit astringent and something else I can't quite describe. It tasted much better brewed like gyokuro (130f for 3:00). The harshness disappeared but I couldn't quite feel it was missing something as well. I lost interest after a while. That was months ago. Took it out again today and brewed it at higher temp (176f with the same amount of leaf) and the harshness was gone. It's a bit sweeter now and has a brothy vegetal flavor. Not bad for the price.

Overall, it was a surprisingly good day considering they were both older greens.

[Tead Off]

Personally, I don't care if a vendor calls something shincha. To me, it just refers to that early period just after picking, about 2 months, where the teas often have an astringency that distinguish them from tea that is 'stored' for a period of time after processing. It's only misleading if the vendor claims a tea is such and such, but is really something else.

It is fine, of course, but places like Hibiki-an are obviously pulling a fast one using a revolving door of terminology. Could you elaborate more about the difference in astringency you perceive? You keep bringing it up but I am not entirely sure what you are referring to from your own personal experiences.

How to describe one's own personal experience? Try reading what many have posted regarding shincha and their experience. It is like opening a bottle of wine and drinking some right away. Wait an hour and the difference will be apparent. With tea, it is a much longer process and some teas never lose their astringency no matter how much time you give it and then the power is gone. Subjectivity is always in play, too.

[daidokorocha]

Personally, I don't care if a vendor calls something shincha. To me, it just refers to that early period just after picking, about 2 months, where the teas often have an astringency that distinguish them from tea that is 'stored' for a period of time after processing. It's only misleading if the vendor claims a tea is such and such, but is really something else.

It is fine, of course, but places like Hibiki-an are obviously pulling a fast one using a revolving door of terminology. Could you elaborate more about the difference in astringency you perceive? You keep bringing it up but I am not entirely sure what you are referring to from your own personal experiences.

How to describe one's own personal experience? Try reading what many have posted regarding shincha and their experience. It is like opening a bottle of wine and drinking some right away. Wait an hour and the difference will be apparent. With tea, it is a much longer process and some teas never lose their astringency no matter how much time you give it and then the power is gone. Subjectivity is always in play, too.

Subjectively obviously must be at play. I have read many opinions on shincha, including on this board.

For instance, one user made this post

"I have to say, as a total newcomer to shincha, the whole experience is a total surprise. I had expected shincha to be grassier, more astringent, more bite, something like that. Instead, I've been sampling Uji Kirameki (O-Cha) and Takumi (Zencha), and both are sweet and smooth and buttery and rich. "

From the Shincha 2009 review thread one user posts

"1st brew is a clear bright light green. Hints of grass and very vegetal with no astringency. Fantastic aroma. Pleasant. "

Another post from the same thread

"There is a very nice clean aroma in the cup, and the taste is a bit light but still nice and sweet, vegetal, no astringency at all. "

2008 Thread
" The color is deeper and cloudier, and the taste is AHHHH. Rich asparagus, and very little astringency."

As one can see, reading around doesn't necessarily help me understand what you perceive. Moreover, Japanese sources essentially always state that bitterness and astringency is less in shincha and some even state that if you run into a shincha with high astringency, then it is a a bad quality tea. Also, the way you brew could also be poor for shincha. Hence, why I asked you for your own personal experience when drinking shincha. Obviously, your imagined shincha does not actually exist due to the fact that your experiences are far from universal. Personally, I have never had an issue with red wine, but I am not sensitive to astringency. Perhaps if you even get it from white wines then perhaps you're just sensitive. I wonder what you would think if you tried the specific teas that were commented upon as having no astringency.

Also, please keep in mind that some people say that astringency increases with exposure to sun. If we take this into account, then there was no reason for you to assume gyokuro would have high levels of astringency. Perhaps it can be useful as a rule of thumb. I am happy that you found satisfaction with your gyokuro.

[Tead Off]

As one can see, reading around doesn't necessarily help me understand what you perceive.

Exactly my point.

You only quoted what I would term 'good experiences' with shincha. There are many that don't fall into that category, too. Then, there are some exceptions. If there were really no differences between 'stored' tea and shincha, why would anyone call it shincha? It's just a word that describes 'new' tea. If your experience doesn't tally with mine, so what?

[daidokorocha]

As one can see, reading around doesn't necessarily help me understand what you perceive.

Exactly my point.

You only quoted what I would term 'good experiences' with shincha. There are many that don't fall into that category, too. Then, there are some exceptions. If there were really no differences between 'stored' tea and shincha, why would anyone call it shincha? It's just a word that describes 'new' tea. If your experience doesn't tally with mine, so what?

I'm just interesting in learning about people's experiences with tea. I am of course not saying there is no difference between storied tea and shincha, because certainly there is. My point is that the shincha experience is more diverse than you make it out to be. I would hate for people who dislike astringency to turn away from shincha, as many have done due to them having the impression that it will always be an astringent mess. We saw in the one post that the person expected it to be bitter and astringent and was surprised it was not. Those are the types of impressions I do not wish people to have. Of course, I respect your decision not to buy shincha, as the gamble is not worth it to you and this I perfectly understand. Whether that is down to brewing method, personal taste, or whatever is irrelevant in the long run, except if you speak of what you perceive as an inherent element of shincha. It is not -- that is all I am attempting to say. Afterall, I love coriander but you may think it tastes like soap.

[ethan]

Drinking some lovely green tea from Taiwan. I find oolong & black tea more interesting generally; yet, I really like this.

I don't know what it costs. It's a sample. I like the freshness & simplicity of it. I will get more info. Cheers

[victoria3]

Each morning these days I'm continuing to enjoy O-Cha's Kagoshima Yutaka Midori from 2013 that I had refrigerated inside odor proof LokSak OpSak ziplock bags. Tea leaves have not deteriorated quickly, as I'd expected them to. I enjoy sipping sinchas out of my modern Noritake pedestal bowl because it puts the liquor on display. Also, the porcelain used, although modern, is very refined and not slippery or cheap feeling.

The 1st steep is a clear yellow green liquor, sweet and smooth. 2nd steep a cloudier brothy very bright bright green liquor, vegetal sweet and very slightly astringent in back. 3rd is a frothy lighter green but tasty and sweet. 4th a rich thick green liquor lighter in flavor but tasty.

I'm using my white clay Tokoname kyusu with Mogake design that was created by wrapping seaweed around the pot which then reacts during firing leaving patterns. For some reason I had identified this kyusu as Bizen but now think it is Tokoname and see very similar ones created by Murata Yoshiki, although mine is much older. Everyones tea blogger, Kohei, also has an identical set given to him by his grandfather in Japan.

[daidokorocha]

Wow, that shade of green. Beautiful Victoria!

Ethan, I find it interesting you think black teas are more interesting than green. Personally, I could see oolong, but I love green more than anything. I was wondering, to what extent have you actually tried greens? Also, something tells me you just love teas from Taiwan! Sadly, for me I have yet to have a Taiwanese green or black. Although, I recently did buy and try from Yunnan Sourcing this hybrid between Taiwanese and Yunnanese varietals. I cannot remember what I think about this one in specific, but I will try it again maybe today and see how I feel about it. if you do not mind Ethan, could you perhaps give me some impressions of greens? For instance, Japanese greens in general, certain Chinese greens, greens from other places (Nepal, India, Taiwan, Vietnam, Kenya, Brazil, etc.) if you've tried any of them? As you are not a fan of greens, I am wondering how you take to them individually.

[ethan]

daidokorocha, I am not a fan of green tea. I have thoroughly enjoyed a few but mostly have problems w/ bitterness or strong vegetal taste. I try to keep an open mind but rarely seek green tea, even for tasting.
I have had delicious Japanese green tea in a few sushi restaurants (& delicious puerh a few times); but I cannot get into mastering all tea.
I did not expect exploring various black teas to be so rewarding. I drink the tea from Nepal that I mention frequently (& sell, click community then teaswap) almost everyday & as well as a black tea from Taiwan as events. That is, I concentrate on them.
Oolongs have a wider range of flavors, of course, but I am not sure they satisfy more than black tea.
I could be happy w/ black tea only from Taiwan I believe but don't need to be.
Cheers

[victoria3]

Ethen, This is perfect thread for your New Yorker article discussion 'What it is like to like'. I'm still thinking about that one. At the moment considering how taste affects individual steeping styles and how that has changed through history.

This morning I had a few refrigerated 6th steeped LiShans that were still sweet and musky. They are a nice calming segue into the higher caffeine richer sincha that I had afterwards, O-Cha's 2016 Yutaka Midori. I think the caffeine content is higher in 2016, than my older 2013 stash. It is possible the leaves calm down resting for a few years. This sincha is very vegetal, bright and a perfectly sweet, rich and smooth brew. Not bitter, and rich, using these parameters for two of us:
1st: 8gr/7oz/162f/90sec.
2nd: 7/168/110sec.
3rd: 7/169/2min.
4th: 7/174/4.5min.