puyuan wrote:chrl42 wrote:Tead Off wrote:Zhuni ore is the stuff that has reputedly been unavailable since the 60's/70's. Mined out.
You mean Zhaozhuang Zhuni..
High quality Zhaozhuang Zhuni was almost gone by the ROC..by 30's Hongni replaced Zhuni in many Shui-pings.
New Zhuni ores have been found time to time, but after 2000, 'specially after 08 when Yixing price sky-rocketed, even high quality new Zhuni became scarce as well.
Zhuni masters like Xu Jin-gen, Zhu Qin-yong, Fang Xiao-long etc still own many Zhuni ores and hand-grind those ores making into the clay. I thought they might not like to hear when someone says "real Zhuni is gone", cos the price of their pots exceeds many Qing dynasty Zhuni.
IMHO, their skill is never worse than Qing dynasty masters, although I believe the clay quality won't be able to match Qing dynasty's.
After talking to you and a few of the other members in this thread about this subject I decided to do my homework, look into the sources and ask more people.
Many people are still under the impression that "modern zhuni" is roughly hongni that's been finely sieved or tampered with, but that's not true at all. There have been different ores steadily found and mined in Huanglongshan for a very long time. Xiaomeiyao Zhuni is not that hard to find even now.
However, what did strike me as relevant is how different Zhaozhuang Zhuni is to later mined ores. The defining trait of the clay is the high quantity of iron, and Zhaozhuang apparently has close to 50% iron. The second clay in iron content that came out of my research, one of three types of 鹅黄 zhuni, stands at less than half than that. That explains the difference in colour.
(I've read a specialist claiming Dahongpao clay being labeled as zhuni is just marketing, as it's a very different ore, but it's higher in iron than ehuang zhuni, so there's that.)
There was even a report on tieba that zhuni clay was found in one of the 外山 areas, I think in a place named Gengde.
Charlie can correct me on the topics above, but in short, it really is very possible to get zhuni pots now, it's just difficult to ascertain its profile if you don't know the person who made it, and it may be an underwhelming brewing device if your benchmark is the older clay.
This is getting too deeper,
according to Zhu Ze-wei's 'Yixing clay ore', ZZ Zhuni has 2 places, traditional spot and west area of ZZ. From my understanding, first spot only has poor-quality ones left and west area became a pond.
I believe 99% of ZZ Zhuni on the market is not the real one, reliable sources I know of only 2.
Xu Jin-gen..his ZZ Zhuni is very close to late-Qing's
and the bunch found in early-90's, Huangjin Zhuni, is the last clay from west area of Zhaozhuang (pond) from my understanding. Xu Yue-feng and others make with this clay time to time.
Except for them, reliable ZZ Zhuni source can be doubtful or shouldn't be high-quality ones.
However, Xu Jin-gen and other very few ZZ Zhuni left are also not comparable to mid-Qing Zhuni (different Zhuni from late-Qing's) in color and porosity. The reason I believe is an amount of Shihuang (factor for red color). It's not imitatable, cos those Zhaozhuang Shihuang ores were almost gone by Daoguang period (early-19c).
Zhaozhuang Zhuni overall have been worshipped for its color and purity, over Xiaomeiyao and Huanglongshan's. I believe 'the clay quality' is not something explainable with its mineral content or so. That's understanding for recent days, but many realized only time can solve the question (old time), not artificial adding of minerals or filtering 'grits', it's not that way. I mean I will be happy if it can be possible
Potters like Chen Qing-fa, Yang Xiao-quan, Xu Wei-liang, Tang Ze-xin use Xiaomeiyao Zhuni. You said Xiaomeiyao zhuni is easy to get, but high-quality ones (zaoqi) are very rare as well. Plus, high-quality Xiaomeiyao Zhuni shrink like hell, so very experienced potters are needed for that.
Dilemma of Xiaomeiyao is, if you make 3 pots using high-quality clay, 2 pots will be cracked or broken in a kiln and the other one not broken will be warped due to shrinkage. So many potters add ball-clay for success rate, then collectors might not like it
IMHO, today's 'best' clay is mixed (pin-pei) or needs a period to store (for plascity) or shrink too hard etc elabrated clays. But looking at old days' clay is I feel they are naturally very rich in quality and color..that's my thought.
Dahongpao clay, my thought, is not something easy to dredge. Clay expert Zhu Ze-wei owns DHP clay but that too is doubtful whether it's same as Qing dynasty's. Late-Qing~ROC, there are pots reportedly made from DHP clay, like Yu Gu-liang's Chuanlu or Shao You-ting's Duoqiu etc I've heard they too are mixed clay with very rare Shihuang clay.
Other than that, potters claiming DHP is just assumptions or pride...correct me if I'm wrong!
