Gyokuro Tamahomare opinions and steeping

[theredbaron]

Also, I don't see how heating water with electricity, charcoal, alcool or any other matter might modify its taste. 90°C water is 90°C water, no matter your heat soure... no?

Just thinking out loud...

I am sorry, but already more than 1200 years ago Lu Yu discussed in his Classic of Tea the merits of water, how to boil it properly, etc.
Yes, it does make a difference which material your kettle is made from. Stainless simply is not the preferred material. In the past millenenia this subject has been constantly studied by tea lovers and masters, and still is. There is a mountain of information available on this exact subject matter.

As to heat source, back to your comparison in food preparation, it is more than well known that different heat sources do have an affect on food, every gourmet and chef can confirm that.

Canada has great waters. But if one has to filter water, this already means that the base water is not the best water for tea. There are some great drinking waters, but if they are too hard, for example, they are not suitable for tea.
I suggested Volvic or Fiji because they are commonly available and good water for tea. I am sure that Canada has some very good locally tapped glacial spring water - one has to experiment with what is locally available.

But the better the tea, the more water matters. And also heat source and material of the kettle effect the tea, though not to the extend water does.

[Kaytea]

Indeed. I think you live in Canada/QC. The country that has the greatest water reserve. In my opinion, it doesn't make any sense to import water from Fiji, like we couldn't find any good water on our part of the globe...

I used to. I'm now in Calgary. My tea actually came from the Camellia Sinensis which is usually top notch with its brewing suggestions. I really don't understand why it is so different from the tea house.

And to entropyembrace (thank you for the link btw! ), I know you probably didn't mean anything by it, but the Camellia Sinensis is a very knowledgeable place. Some of the 4 partners even provide professional counseling for tea businesses and they offer amazing workshops (including tea+cheese, tea+ scotch and tea+chocolate! (I'm going nuts! I'd love to try the cheese pairing workshop!). The tea store might not be on par with the tea house though, I've also noticed newbies there so they are probably not at ease to stray from limiting instructions. But I understand that is no excuse. I'm a good customer of theirs and have known them for too long to accept this. I have contacted them on the subject and they noticed the discrepancy. I am to call again when the store is open to find out more about it. They often travel around the globe to get their hands on hard to reach teas from small farms. They are not your average tea place.
When it comes to this peculiar Gyokuro, no one has been able to give me directives that matched the final product (after brewing) that I get at the tea house. I'm utterly perplexed. If you get a chance to go to Québec, Montréal. Go to the Camellia Sinensis's tea house and order the Gyokuro Tamahomare (given they have it in stock). IT IS NOT like other gyokuro I've tried (because I've tried different ones at the same tea house and they seem closer in taste to a sencha (not THAT close, to one, but once you compare with Tamahomare, it's hard to top that sweetness, roundness, silkiness and lack of tanin whatsoever).

As for Teavana, of course I didn't seriously consider this place for buying a tetsubin! They sell Metropolitan teas for crying out loud! I just like to go there for the free samples and ask them intricate questions about the provenance of their tea. It's like an Apple store; overpriced average stocks. Teavana is only good for expensive gifts to impress people or for flavoured teas if you like unorthodox flavours like strawberry champagne.
I'm new to Calgary, so I don't know many places that sell tea, although they are starting to pop out. Hopefully quality will follow. There was a place, but it closed down, so it scares me a bit concerning the future of tea in Calgary considering others have fallen too before I moved in. /freeTeavanaBashing

Anyway, I guess I tend to agree mostly with you Bef, while I understand that water plays an important role in tea (and I DO know) brewing, I am not ready to buy bottled water all the time. I think my filtered water is pretty good and even if I were to access a fresh spring water, it might taste different in different parts of world, so I guess one might never agree on which one tastes the best with tea. I might try and compare a few teas though with bottled water and with my filtered water and see for myself.

So the conversation seems to run mostly around the water. I have the teawares, timers, the tea... I'm tending to think it is more of a ratio leaf-to-water and steeping time that is the problem.
I've been wondering though, does it make sense to use a 250ml kyusu and only pour 100ml in it? I'm going to call the teahouse now to check with them, but I am most certain they use a kyusu slightly bigger than my 80 ml one. I refuse to rest until I get this right! If I ever, I will definitely share it with you guys. You gotta try that gyokuro!

[Bef]

Also, I don't see how heating water with electricity, charcoal, alcool or any other matter might modify its taste. 90°C water is 90°C water, no matter your heat soure... no?

Just thinking out loud...

I am sorry, but already more than 1200 years ago Lu Yu discussed in his Classic of Tea the merits of water, how to boil it properly, etc.
Yes, it does make a difference which material your kettle is made from. Stainless simply is not the preferred material. In the past millenenia this subject has been constantly studied by tea lovers and masters, and still is. There is a mountain of information available on this exact subject matter.

As to heat source, back to your comparison in food preparation, it is more than well known that different heat sources do have an affect on food, every gourmet and chef can confirm that.

Canada has great waters. But if one has to filter water, this already means that the base water is not the best water for tea. There are some great drinking waters, but if they are too hard, for example, they are not suitable for tea.
I suggested Volvic or Fiji because they are commonly available and good water for tea. I am sure that Canada has some very good locally tapped glacial spring water - one has to experiment with what is locally available.

But the better the tea, the more water matters. And also heat source and material of the kettle effect the tea, though not to the extend water does.

Regarding the use of stainless steel - Just because some subject matter experts agreed 1200 years ago about some ideas doesn't prove anything: 1200 years ago, all the experts also agreed that the earth was flat. IMO, there is no way that boiling water in a high quality stainless steel container for a few minutes would alter its taste.

Now, would an iron tetsubin modify its change? Maybe - but if so, I would be curious to taste water that stayed in that same container for a week. If its taste changed in 5 minutes, let's just imagine how it would taste after a week... Not saying it won't alter the water taste though.

As to the heat sources: Using gas, electricity or anything else has an effect on how food cooks. But I don't see how it would change the water taste. The temperature is just thermodynamics, there is no magic there...?

[Kaytea]

Canada has great waters. But if one has to filter water, this already means that the base water is not the best water for tea. There are some great drinking waters, but if they are too hard, for example, they are not suitable for tea.

I agree. But it can also be noted that they also use filtered water at the tea house (as it would cost way too much to mass-purchase bottled water). And they brew it in the very same electric kettle I have. While I understand that methods based on Lu Yu's recommendations are optimal, the quality of the taste in the teahouse is fantastic. That is why I would rather focus my attention on the method rather than the water to fix my problem.

I have just contacted them and they do it "artistically", meaning they do it by the looks for quantities as the people in the tea house directly have been doing this for a long time and don't need to measure the tea leaves for great results. I have got some specific information with me, so I'll share them:
They have a 125ml kyusu (which has brewed countless of green teas for years), they use 70C water (I know it seems high, but it works with this one). They use approximately 3 teaspoons (I know they have a wooden spoon like the ones you may see in a utensils set for Gong Fu Cha), but in terms of normal teaspoons (the ones in your utensil drawers), the lady said that what they used was closer to 3 of those and not a mountain, but rather flush in the spoon. When I asked for grams, she said it varied from 3g to 5g. The water used is filtered and brewed with a Breville SK500XL electric kettle. Infusion times are 30 seconds for first and second infusion, then 1 minute, then you double for sub-sequent infusions.

Based on this, my 80ml kyusu should receive approximately 3.2g (5/125*80) of tea.
She also told me it doesn't make sense to use 125ml of water in a 250ml kyusu because of the oxygen contained in the other half of the vessel. A full kyusu will yield better results.

I am limited on the amount of caffeine I can have per day and had a full teapot of some black tea named yellow tea that smells and looks very similar to a Jin Die (randomly picked in a Chinese tea shop in Vancouver), so I will not try this recipe today. I will most likely try tomorrow and post the results.

(I'm secretly waiting for you guys to rebel against the 70C temperature! )

[bonescwa]

Also, I don't see how heating water with electricity, charcoal, alcool or any other matter might modify its taste. 90°C water is 90°C water, no matter your heat soure... no?

Just thinking out loud...

I am sorry, but already more than 1200 years ago Lu Yu discussed in his Classic of Tea the merits of water, how to boil it properly, etc.
Yes, it does make a difference which material your kettle is made from. Stainless simply is not the preferred material. In the past millenenia this subject has been constantly studied by tea lovers and masters, and still is. There is a mountain of information available on this exact subject matter.

As to heat source, back to your comparison in food preparation, it is more than well known that different heat sources do have an affect on food, every gourmet and chef can confirm that.

Canada has great waters. But if one has to filter water, this already means that the base water is not the best water for tea. There are some great drinking waters, but if they are too hard, for example, they are not suitable for tea.
I suggested Volvic or Fiji because they are commonly available and good water for tea. I am sure that Canada has some very good locally tapped glacial spring water - one has to experiment with what is locally available.

But the better the tea, the more water matters. And also heat source and material of the kettle effect the tea, though not to the extend water does.

Regarding the use of stainless steel - Just because some subject matter experts agreed 1200 years ago about some ideas doesn't prove anything: 1200 years ago, all the experts also agreed that the earth was flat. IMO, there is no way that boiling water in a high quality stainless steel container for a few minutes would alter its taste.

Now, would an iron tetsubin modify its change? Maybe - but if so, I would be curious to taste water that stayed in that same container for a week. If its taste changed in 5 minutes, let's just imagine how it would taste after a week... Not saying it won't alter the water taste though.

As to the heat sources: Using gas, electricity or anything else has an effect on how food cooks. But I don't see how it would change the water taste. The temperature is just thermodynamics, there is no magic there...?

Well, now you are getting into the east vs west dichotomy that comes up occasionally. Boiling water might not simply be boiling water, different heat sources produce different heat gradients throughout the volume of the water, a tetsubin might impart increased iron concentration to the water in a reduced oxidation state that can only be practically achieved by boiling the water in it and not just letting it sit there, etc. I don't necessarily believe that, I'm playing devil's advocate.
A lot of people seem to think that 1200 year old knowledge is fine if it actually produces a better result than what we "know" should be the result, informed by our contemporary scientific models of the world

[entropyembrace]

Also, I don't see how heating water with electricity, charcoal, alcool or any other matter might modify its taste. 90°C water is 90°C water, no matter your heat soure... no?

Just thinking out loud...

I am sorry, but already more than 1200 years ago Lu Yu discussed in his Classic of Tea the merits of water, how to boil it properly, etc.

Stainless steel didn't exist 1200 years ago (it was developed at the beginning of the 20th century), so I doubt Lu Yu had anything to say about it.

That said I do think there is some difference between vessels used to heat water, but high quality stainless steel without any residues from manufacturing should be fine, and not alter the taste.

I did have a stainless steel thermos that completely ruined the taste of anything put in it, I'm not sure why exactly but if a kettle had the same problem it would be awful to use.

[chrl42]

Also, I don't see how heating water with electricity, charcoal, alcool or any other matter might modify its taste. 90°C water is 90°C water, no matter your heat soure... no?

Just thinking out loud...

I am sorry, but already more than 1200 years ago Lu Yu discussed in his Classic of Tea the merits of water, how to boil it properly, etc.
Yes, it does make a difference which material your kettle is made from. Stainless simply is not the preferred material. In the past millenenia this subject has been constantly studied by tea lovers and masters, and still is. There is a mountain of information available on this exact subject matter.

As to heat source, back to your comparison in food preparation, it is more than well known that different heat sources do have an affect on food, every gourmet and chef can confirm that.

Canada has great waters. But if one has to filter water, this already means that the base water is not the best water for tea. There are some great drinking waters, but if they are too hard, for example, they are not suitable for tea.
I suggested Volvic or Fiji because they are commonly available and good water for tea. I am sure that Canada has some very good locally tapped glacial spring water - one has to experiment with what is locally available.

But the better the tea, the more water matters. And also heat source and material of the kettle effect the tea, though not to the extend water does.

Regarding the use of stainless steel - Just because some subject matter experts agreed 1200 years ago about some ideas doesn't prove anything: 1200 years ago, all the experts also agreed that the earth was flat. IMO, there is no way that boiling water in a high quality stainless steel container for a few minutes would alter its taste.

Now, would an iron tetsubin modify its change? Maybe - but if so, I would be curious to taste water that stayed in that same container for a week. If its taste changed in 5 minutes, let's just imagine how it would taste after a week... Not saying it won't alter the water taste though.

As to the heat sources: Using gas, electricity or anything else has an effect on how food cooks. But I don't see how it would change the water taste. The temperature is just thermodynamics, there is no magic there...?

lol what a comparison..

The taste change in a tetsubin is still very well agreed upon by those who think the earth is round

As for Luyu vs today, is still valid..just needs to rule out the facts that they didn't brew loose-leaf tea and none-green tea back then.

Luyu and other Chinese tea connoisseurs gave a death sentence to boiling water, IMO boiling water kills the merits of using expensive bottled mineral waters, yet covers the faults of filtered water....but I am still very a beginner on this

[entropyembrace]

I have just contacted them and they do it "artistically", meaning they do it by the looks for quantities as the people in the tea house directly have been doing this for a long time and don't need to measure the tea leaves for great results. I have got some specific information with me, so I'll share them:
They have a 125ml kyusu (which has brewed countless of green teas for years), they use 70C water (I know it seems high, but it works with this one). They use approximately 3 teaspoons (I know they have a wooden spoon like the ones you may see in a utensils set for Gong Fu Cha), but in terms of normal teaspoons (the ones in your utensil drawers), the lady said that what they used was closer to 3 of those and not a mountain, but rather flush in the spoon. When I asked for grams, she said it varied from 3g to 5g. The water used is filtered and brewed with a Breville SK500XL electric kettle. Infusion times are 30 seconds for first and second infusion, then 1 minute, then you double for sub-sequent infusions.

Based on this, my 80ml kyusu should receive approximately 3.2g (5/125*80) of tea.
She also told me it doesn't make sense to use 125ml of water in a 250ml kyusu because of the oxygen contained in the other half of the vessel. A full kyusu will yield better results.

...

(I'm secretly waiting for you guys to rebel against the 70C temperature! )

I'll bite

70 C is too hot and it sounds like they're brewing a high end sencha not gyokuro. Assuming it's really gyokuro it would be better to use lower temperature water (below 60 degrees) and more leaf. Your 80ml kyusu is a really good volume, so stick with it.

Also, when buying tea in the future don't feel limited to what you can get in Calgary. I live in Edmonton and buy all of my Japanese tea from stores located in Japan. The shipping times and prices are very reasonable and probably better than ordering from eastern Canada would be. Besides that the price and quality of the tea is better

[Bef]

Also, I don't see how heating water with electricity, charcoal, alcool or any other matter might modify its taste. 90°C water is 90°C water, no matter your heat soure... no?

Just thinking out loud...

I am sorry, but already more than 1200 years ago Lu Yu discussed in his Classic of Tea the merits of water, how to boil it properly, etc.
Yes, it does make a difference which material your kettle is made from. Stainless simply is not the preferred material. In the past millenenia this subject has been constantly studied by tea lovers and masters, and still is. There is a mountain of information available on this exact subject matter.

As to heat source, back to your comparison in food preparation, it is more than well known that different heat sources do have an affect on food, every gourmet and chef can confirm that.

Canada has great waters. But if one has to filter water, this already means that the base water is not the best water for tea. There are some great drinking waters, but if they are too hard, for example, they are not suitable for tea.
I suggested Volvic or Fiji because they are commonly available and good water for tea. I am sure that Canada has some very good locally tapped glacial spring water - one has to experiment with what is locally available.

But the better the tea, the more water matters. And also heat source and material of the kettle effect the tea, though not to the extend water does.

Regarding the use of stainless steel - Just because some subject matter experts agreed 1200 years ago about some ideas doesn't prove anything: 1200 years ago, all the experts also agreed that the earth was flat. IMO, there is no way that boiling water in a high quality stainless steel container for a few minutes would alter its taste.

Now, would an iron tetsubin modify its change? Maybe - but if so, I would be curious to taste water that stayed in that same container for a week. If its taste changed in 5 minutes, let's just imagine how it would taste after a week... Not saying it won't alter the water taste though.

As to the heat sources: Using gas, electricity or anything else has an effect on how food cooks. But I don't see how it would change the water taste. The temperature is just thermodynamics, there is no magic there...?

lol what a comparison..

Yes: "lol"...

[Bef]

I'll bite

70 C is too hot and it sounds like they're brewing a high end sencha not gyokuro. Assuming it's really gyokuro it would be better to use lower temperature water (below 60 degrees) and more leaf. Your 80ml kyusu is a really good volume, so stick with it.

Also, when buying tea in the future don't feel limited to what you can get in Calgary. I live in Edmonton and buy all of my Japanese tea from stores located in Japan. The shipping times and prices are very reasonable and probably better than ordering from eastern Canada would be. Besides that the price and quality of the tea is better

I agree. Lots of awesome places to buy all kinds of teas online. Great places in Taiwan, China, Japan and India.

Like the OP, I also like Camellia Sinensis, but I live near 2 of their stores, but been enjoying buying teas mostly online during the last year.

[kyarazen]

stainless steel doesnt rust, but it can react chemically with substances. its possible to remove rust in tetsubin by boiling tea leaves in it.. hmm.. where does the rust go?

different boiling vessels made of different materials can do different things to water.

1) tall kettles have large thermal gradients, its hotter at the bottom close to the heat source, its cooler at the top. the difference can be 8 degrees celsius or so

2) alcohol heated boiling is slow, weak, the temperature gradient is much larger. induction heating or other methods where the bottom of the kettle becomes a uniform intense heater, the temperature gradient is lesser, around 3 degrees or so.

3) gently boiled water can preserve more hydrogen bonding between water molecules than an intense rolling boil (this is evident from the mpemba effect, where boiling water ironically freezes faster than cool water)

4) hydrogen bonding determines how things are dissolved.
tea brewing is a mixture of processes, dried tea juice on the surface of leaves can be "dissolved out" very easily, but proper infusion of the leaf proper requires water permeation into the leaf.

this is opposed by the fact that leaves of plants are naturally water proof (thinner cuticle for buds, thicker for old leaves) ... in tea leaf there isnt easy entry or easy infusion unless the leaf is crushed, bruised.

through respective channels for water entry, water is absorbed by the leaf, the tea leaf compounds then dissolved in the absorbed water diffusing out to give the tea brew.

why does hydrogen bonding matter?imagine a long line of 50 humans holding hands in a straight line running into a narrow tunnel versus individuals running in..

[theredbaron]

(I'm secretly waiting for you guys to rebel against the 70C temperature! )

They only thing i can say here is that if they advise you to use 70C water for Gyukuro than you should find a better place for advice on how to brew Gyokuro.
You might also want to order a top Guyokuro from a Japanese based shop over the net as comparison, and brew it with the parameters several people here recommended.

I do neither know the shop, nor have i tried the tea, nor with the water you used. Usually here in Asia, when you buy tea that tastes so different than in the shop you bought it from no matter what you tried, it usually is that the tea you bought is a different tea than what you tried in the shop - a common con especially in China.

But if you reject advice given here, and think that the shop you bought it from is right, nevertheless that the tea still doesn't come out right, then why ask for advice here in the first place?

[theredbaron]

Regarding the use of stainless steel - Just because some subject matter experts agreed 1200 years ago about some ideas doesn't prove anything: 1200 years ago, all the experts also agreed that the earth was flat. IMO, there is no way that boiling water in a high quality stainless steel container for a few minutes would alter its taste.

Very amusing.

Tea experts here in Asia in every tea culture *today* all constantly debate and discuss the merits of different materials of kettles and heat sources for the optimum in tea preparation. While there is debate on many issues, one that all agree with is that stainless is not the optimal material. It can be used, is better than some (such as plastic kettles), but not the best.
While you may snub ancient knowledge on tea in China and other Asian tea cultures, you may consider the position that tea still has here, and the quite enormous resources, time and effort that people put into acquiring knowledge on all aspects surrounding tea.

[chingwa]

Wow, look at this thread go!

For the stainless steel vs tetsubin debate, all I can say is don't knock it till you tried it. In my constant experience (through reproducable experimentation) stainless steel produces a poorer result than tetsubin, by a large margin. Perhaps we could say that each material is influencing the flavor... some materials influence for the worse and some materials influence for the better. Though the adamant suggestion that stainless steel is somehow "pure" and offers no influence to the water is somewhat disconcerting.

70c water is just a waste of the gyokuro imho. I suppose it's not impossible that this particular gyokuro is better at 70 than at 60, but it would be the first in my experience Did you try the instructions I wrote in the first reply?

I looked up the Tamahomare, and it seems to be from Marukyu Koyamaen, which is a very old and respected tea company in Kyoto. The instructions on their website for their Gyokuro uses 7-8gm... 55c water... for 90-120 seconds. Take a looksee here:
http://www.marukyu-koyamaen.co.jp/engli ... okuro.html

I'm not sayin' nuthin. If you enjoy what you get from the teahouse then that's what you should shoot for. It seems odd that you can't reproduce it from their instructions, but their instructions do seem odd.

Edit: Also, and unfortunately, you're getting ripped off badly on the price.

[chingwa]

And one other word of advice... don't get so wrapped up in chasing a past tea moment that you miss the current tea moment.