Yixing dedication criteria - what clay/shape for what tea?

[bearsbearsbears]

I bought many yixing pots in China, many of which I haven't dedicated to any tea yet.

I have a general idea of how to match pots to teas, but I don't have a handle on the finer points.

For example, I allocated a flatter duan ni pot to dancong and it's never gotten the aromatics right. Two people who know their pots have both given me reasons why the pot is poor for dancong--the first said it's not quite the right shape but would be ok with seasoning. The other said that duan ni clay isn't good for aromatic teas.

On the other hand, I used a thick-walled blended duan ni and hong ni pot for sheng pu'er and my tea has been marvelous from the first time I used it.

I wanted to gather some opinions/knowledge on the subject of how to associate a pot with a tea. I've listed some parameters below, and maybe there are more I haven't thought of.

Please give me the best of your know-how!

Parameters:

CLAY:
-Types (zi ni, zhu ni, hong ni, lu ni, duan ni, hei ni etc.)
-Thickness
-"Density" / porosity

SHAPE:
-specific shapes "shui pin" "bai le" "shi piao"
-general characteristics "round / flat" "tall / short"
-size?
-footed/not footed*
-shape of the lid?*

*does this even matter?

much appreciated

[scruffmcgruff]

I know next to nothing about this subject, though I would certainly like to learn more.

All I've heard is that taller/rounder pots are better for rolled (i.e. TGY, dong ding, etc.) leaves, whereas short/flat pots are better for flatter or twisted (yancha, puerh, etc.) leaves. You can thank Andy for that little tip.

I have no idea where a shui pin would fit in this scheme. Perhaps it's a multitasker? *shrugs*

[Space Samurai]

That makes sense to me, Scruff.

Just my very uneducated hunch says that the clay would more likely be responsible than shape.

[Bubba_tea]

Hopefully ok to bump this topic up - I'm also interested. Bill Lee from chinaflairtea has recommendations for his pots related to shape. It seems like for rolled tky / dong ding / dan cong that the fat bottom pots might be good (like the stone skimmer pot on the flair page).

[Salsero]

Always good to bump old topics!

I personally don't understand the shape issues, but I know that a lot of people feel that certain shapes allow the rolled (fisted, globed) oolongs to open up more fully. Also, for teas that require a lot of heat, like Wuyi oolongs and sheng puerh, a thicker pot is supposed to be better. But I am pretty much at a loss when you get beyond that.

[betta]

Basically I don't try to fix the parameter of the pot, just trial and error is enough for me.
Concerning rolled oolong, high temp maintenance combined with enough space to unfurl the leaves will be good.
Naturally sphere is a geometry with the largest volume but minimum surface; so anything with the shape closer to a sphere should retain the heat better (low heat transfer area) while providing large volume.

[chrl42]

We have been talking this issue sometime before I think..

I would like to talk my opinion into it, hope it can add some to this thread.

One consideration about yixing teapot is absorptiveness I think, which characterize a yixing clay along with thermal conductivity. Absorptivenss however differs by some factors, here I would like to address them

1)clay
It affects by natural size of particle and size of filtering hole(usually 30 to 60 holes)of a sieve. Talking former, good clays are rather smooth(small) from original ore like Luni, Hongni, Zhuni or Di Cao Qing(just my opinion). Zhuni, for example you can even break the ore by hand. Talking latter requires to understand the procedure of manufactering yixing clay

1. Mined yixing ore gets exposed to rain and air for years,
2. then break it with a hammer then grind them into powder.
3. And gets filtered for the size of particle you want. For example, clay that's filtered 60 hole-sieve will be smaller than 30 hole-sieve. But Zhuni clay won't be filtered even with 100 hole-sieve because they are naturally very small powder.
4. Filtered clay then gets mixed with water for stickness. Then stored for years cos it makes a microbe to occur that helps crafting(reflexity) and rid of odor. Lao(old) clay is defined by this point, that how long this clay is stored. Some say 2 yr is enough, some say 10 yrs is enough, and most of time 'famous' masters store those clays for decades then give em to their son and son and son. Reason old yixing teapot gets its fame is 'so-called' good clay has been all consumed or in hand of these ppl. If you would believe it, just like tea yixing clay also had a level(not now cos most of nowadays clays are so-so) with proper storage was considered 'good' clay to be used.

2)temperature of heating
After teapot is crafted then it goes to a kiln to be heated. Cos heating at high temperature will be more processed that close micro air-holes (you can link to absorptivenss). And heating at low temperature won't close but it will leave a bad odor of clay. It's common sense high temperature heated teapots are better to use but most of time it's heated at low temperature. Crafters are afraid of cracking or color gets worn out. And to add each clay has different ideal temperature for example, Zhuni will see that process at 1100C and higher temperature will makes a cracking or black dots(iron). Luni won't see that until 1200C.

Seems like I have been saying 'less absorbtiveness = good clay'. But that's not the Chinese standard of yixing clay. The Chinese will say 'good clay = high absorbtivess that don't let aroma out'. They say unlike other claywares, yixing clay has 'double' absorbtiveness that absorbs bad odor but not lose original aroma. They might be right, but I haven't experienced by far(maybe my teapots were cheaply purchased afterall) so I couldn't stress em out from my perspective.

So talking my point of view, one should pair tea to clay like.. if one prefer subtlety and aroma, I recommend Zhuni, Hongni, properly heated Luni(The most difficult clay to heat) or Yao Bian(method that changes a color of pot with numerous attempts of heating), and that's what even conservative yixing followers in China and Taiwan would agree.

Or if one cares about 'absorptiveness' who can't bear foul taste of tea, I recommend Qing Shui ni, Duan ni, normal Zi ni type (Zi ni itself has too many kinds).

BTW I didn't add artificial dyes(oxide manganese, oxide cobalt, iron red powder etc..) - so-called Heini or Zhuni on the market clays...most of time they have no 'absorptiveness' and functions like a porcelain..

[Smells_Familiar]

Very interesting chrl42. I think this topic is a goodun and I'm happy it was resurrected.

Question...would anyone Not use a pot of this shape or type of clay for shu or wuyi oolong, and why? The walls are of medium thickness. If the answer is no for shu, I'm thinking the reason would be that the walls aren't "thick" and the shape allows loss of heat more than a spherical non-footed pot. Personally, I don't see rapid heat loss when using this pot and gongfuing (verb ) because of the short infusions. Normally, my last infusion is 6 minutes or less, and the majority are under 30 seconds. I'm forming my own opinions through experience but I want to hear what others think as well.

[chrl42]

That makes sense to me, Scruff.

Just my very uneducated hunch says that the clay would more likely be responsible than shape.

Would that include me?

And regarding a shape and size of leaves, have to do with size of width of entrance of pot. That larger leaves are harder to put into smaller width of a pot. And flatten lid will fasten the brewing time so it's recommended for Pu Er.

One thing I want to add is thermal conductivity. Lower thermal conductivity = higher protective ability and that's one trait of yixing teapot. Even more if it's unporous clay like Zhuni where their density won't likely let the heat out, so Zhuni pots often made thinner cos thicker Zhuni would rather 'cook' the leaves. Having said that, high temperature brewing teas like Pu Er, thicker pots are rather recommended and lighter sophiscated tea like Gao Shan do the opposite.

Here's my recommendation of yixing.

For Light Oolongs (hopefully Zhuni):
from left: Si Ting, Zhui Qiu, Long Dan

For Wuyi and Puer
Fang Gu, Shi Piao, Xi Shi

Just for fun..[/img]

[Bubba_tea]

chrl42 - what category would you put the 'da hong pao ni' from my other topic? Is it a kind of zi ni? Also - any particular shape you think would work well for dan cong (is it cong or chong)?

[wyardley]

chrl42 - what category would you put the 'da hong pao ni' from my other topic? Is it a kind of zi ni?

I don't know a lot about it, but my guess is that it would be considered hong ni (i.e., red clay) of some sort.

Also - any particular shape you think would work well for dan cong (is it cong or chong)?

Usually people like relatively flat shapes for dan cong, and logistically, pots with a wide opening are very useful. Also, since it's from the Chaozhou area, Chaozhou / Shantou clay pots are very appropriate for this type of tea. Imen @ Tea Obsession should have some for relatively reasonable prices, and Jing can find some on special order, though they will likely charge a lot for it. I have a supposedly 1970s flat oil-lamp shaped zisha pot (with a wide opening) which I use for Dan Cong, as well as a slightly taller Chaozhou pot. I can't detect that much of a difference in the taste, but if I had to describe any difference, I'd say that the tea is a little mellower and less bright in the zisha pot (as you'd expect).

'cóng' is the official hanyu pinyin for 丛, though I believe it may be pronounced differently in Cantonese and Teochew. In Mandarin Chinese, it's pronounced like 'tsong', with an o close to an "oh" sound, and a rising tone. It's not 'cong' with a hard c sound ("kong").

[wyardley]

This book: http://www.amazon.com/Beauty-Chinese-Yi ... 9812320822

has some very odd theories on teapots and matching pots to tea. He claims you can tell by simply trying different teas in a pot which one suits the pot, by looking at the appearance of the pot when brewing tea - that if the water on the outside of the pot slides off or dries very quickly, the pot is ill suited for the tea, whereas if the pot and tea are suited for each other, the tea oil will seep through the pores of the pot and make the pot all nice and shiny, even if the outside of the pot hasn't been showered with water. He describes his "scientific" experiments in great detail, and claims to have "proved" his theory to various skeptics, simply by brewing them tea in a pot that's perfectly suited for the tea.

He also claims that larger teapots are better than small ones (I suspect this is mostly because a certain type of pot collector prefers larger pots, which do give the potter some more options in terms of aesthetics), and that master made pots have much better clay than the clay used in ordinary factory made pots, even the older ones, because master potters had access to better clays.

I'm of course paraphrasing / summarizing here, but I have to say I was a little disappointed in the book (though the pictures are pretty), given how expensive it is (from being banned in Malaysia).

All of this flies in the face of a lot of existing tea knowledge (which the author mentions), and while it's true that much of the existing knowledge may be pseudo-scientific and maybe even wrong, the author doesn't actually "prove" his theories (though he says he does).

Of course, since most of us don't have access to lots of authentic examples of master-made Yixing pots, who knows... maybe the pots we have are pale shadows of a true masterpiece.[/url]

I don't claim to be an expert, but I usually try to use somewhat flat or medium height teapots for wiry oolongs and pu'erhs, and... and redder / harder clays for brighter, younger oolongs and good aged sheng pu'erh / browner / more porous clays for teas that I'd like to mellow out a little. And I think the CW is that you'd want thinner pots for greener, more delicate teas, and thicker walled pots for teas that you want to hit with a lot of heat.

It's not going to kill your pot to try some different teas with it at first, so I'd suggest just trying a pot with different teas and see what tastes good.

I will be the first to admit that while I do try to dedicate pots to a certain tea or at least a certain class of teas, I don't claim to be good at suiting pots to teas - usually, it's just a total guess, or maybe I ask someone who seems to know what they're talking about for advice.

[Salsero]

I don't claim to be good at suiting pots to teas - usually, it's just a total guess, or maybe I ask someone who seems to know what they're talking about for advice.

It makes me feel better to see that even someone that I consider to be a bit of an authority has doubts in this confusing area.

[Proinsias]

The more I read this thread and others like it the more I think my intuition has guided me well in pairing tea with pots.

I think the idea that rolled oolong might need a circular-ish pot might be applied to compressed sheng as it also seems to expand quite a bit, shu less so.

I have a thick walled flattened yixing I used for tie guan yin which I switched to shu recently, the lighter the tea the less I see the point in having a yixing dedicated to it.

[cupioneer]

Guang of Hou De Tea posted about this same topic some time ago on his blog. (I can't post the link because I'm a new member here, so you'll just have to search for his 10/2/06 post on the old server.)

To summarize, he believes that the lesser oxidized teas (ie green, white, some oolongs) should be brewed in wider, flatter pots because they tend to dissipate heat faster. As the oxidation degree increases, the pot should become taller and thinner. There is a handy diagram on the blog post.

Of course, he does not discount other factors, such as clay, firing, thickness, ambient conditions, etc.

Based on my somewhat uneducated opinion, this makes complete sense. Anyone can judge the shape of a teapot, but how do you determine clay? Based on what a vendor tells you? From everything I've read, this is unreliable at best.

As a consequence, for me, the whole process is trial and error. I'm not going to rule out brewing tea in a vessel because of clay. It also makes purchasing large numbers of teapots very fun (and expensive)!