Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

[jayinhk]

hmm.. top grade dancong is abt same price as top grade yancha.. that is to exclude the bubbled examples.

expect 1 jin 500g to be about 8k-15k usd for either

I stand corrected I've never seen dancong at those prices!

[kyarazen]

hmm.. top grade dancong is abt same price as top grade yancha.. that is to exclude the bubbled examples.

expect 1 jin 500g to be about 8k-15k usd for either

I stand corrected I've never seen dancong at those prices!

yancha's more bubbled. more publicity.. different volume too and more regions involved. you can see lots of talk about yancha so the prices of these teas are more encountered.

dancong gets lesser "heat" in the media, except that good dancong is really really hard to come by. i've had a dancong from a 300 year old tree, zi lan, was approx 50k rmb/jin. it was a "pk" session between this tea and hojo's osmanthus laocong guihua (approx 6-7k/kg?). both were extremely enjoyable, when we had that tea session we were up in the wuyi mountains and the mist of the night was blowing into our faces

with regards to dancong, i used to speak well of a local dancong merchant, but these days, their inconsistencies and lesser storage methods have left me sorely disappointed to the point of not being a returning customer anymore.. many of the mail ordered ones or free samples from insta/fb marketing are always doped with added aromatics.. tough to get decent good tea~

[jayinhk]

hmm.. top grade dancong is abt same price as top grade yancha.. that is to exclude the bubbled examples.

expect 1 jin 500g to be about 8k-15k usd for either

I stand corrected I've never seen dancong at those prices!

yancha's more bubbled. more publicity.. different volume too and more regions involved. you can see lots of talk about yancha so the prices of these teas are more encountered.

dancong gets lesser "heat" in the media, except that good dancong is really really hard to come by. i've had a dancong from a 300 year old tree, zi lan, was approx 50k rmb/jin. it was a "pk" session between this tea and hojo's osmanthus laocong guihua (approx 6-7k/kg?). both were extremely enjoyable, when we had that tea session we were up in the wuyi mountains and the mist of the night was blowing into our faces

with regards to dancong, i used to speak well of a local dancong merchant, but these days, their inconsistencies and lesser storage methods have left me sorely disappointed to the point of not being a returning customer anymore.. many of the mail ordered ones or free samples from insta/fb marketing are always doped with added aromatics.. tough to get decent good tea~

Wow, you are definitely in a different league from everyone else on here with tea sessions like that! By "pk" session do you mean "pk" as in HK slang? Sounds like an amazing session!

I've only knowingly encountered fragranced dancong once...and that was back in 2012. Really good dancong is definitely hard to come by! I have no problem getting Wuyicha I'm happy to drink here in HK, but good dancong is always more elusive. Not that I'm drinking 50k RMB/jin anything!

[VanFersen]

I can say that there is a difference of course what you might use for Dancong. If you want a total and overall clean straight taste of the actual tea go with celadon/porcelain BUT I think that's boring somehow because there are so many layers a Dancong could be enhanced or influenced to create some sort of a distinct symbiosis with the tea and clay fusion together to something great.

Sofar I tested three types of clay with Dancong Jianshui, Da Hong Pao Yixing and a Chao Zhou Zhuni

Far the best Choice was Jianshui I don't know why but this type of clean clay really enhanced all the nuances of every Dancong to its ultimate best.

Chao Zhou is nearly the same as Jianshui but more like encourage and support the Dancong within its steeping as to enhance it that much.

Da Hong Pao Yixing wasn't bad but not optimal for this type of tea. I in fact wouldn't use any Yixing for Dancong - best Choice would be Jianshi and Chao Zhou now I finally tested this one too.

At the moment I received two Chao Zhou a Zhuni and a Da Hong Pao which should be even better but in case of this one I got some problems mentioned within another thread. I will get a new one by the seller. If this one arrives I am doing a simultaneously steeping and see how different Chao Zhou could be if you test different types of Chao Zhou clay.

[ethan]

? about dancing: Does bitterness usually present itself sooner or later?

Comment/?: In Taiwan a jin is 600 grams, not 500 as mentioned in this thread. Is a jin 600 grams someplaces & less grams other places?

[jayinhk]

? about dancing: Does bitterness usually present itself sooner or later?

Comment/?: In Taiwan a jin is 600 grams, not 500 as mentioned in this thread. Is a jin 600 grams someplaces & less grams other places?

I think when bitterness hits you depends on the tea--I have a jin of 2016 dancong right now that is acceptably bitter in the first infusion, but this passes and then you get lovely huigan. It has the strongest osmanthus aroma I've had from dancong yet, and that flavor persists for a good, long while.

600g is the old Chinese measurement--only HK/Macau/Taiwan still use the 600g jin, I believe.

[benm3]

I think that, in general, Dan Cong is about aroma. Unglazed clay does not usually, in my opinion, elevate aroma; it often mutes it. So Dan Cong is generally best brewed in porcelain. A thin, porcelain gaiwan is the vessel of choice in general. Though Dan Cong and Wu Yi teas have much in common, I do think that Hojo is wrong if he means to say that Shui Xian Dan Cong and Wu Yi Shui Xian are the same plant. Dan Cong Shui Xian is a general term for many varietals grown in the Phoenix region, while Wu Yi Shui Xian is one specific varietal.

[kyarazen]

chong an county's publication record : shuixian mother trees are located at shui ji county (in modern day jian yang town), da hu peach hillock's zhu xian dong, during the daoguang era, it was discoverd by a farmer with surname Su, was highly propagated and this tea was called Zhu xian tea, due to the local dialect, zhu xian eventually evolved to shuixian as the words "zhu" in dialect sounds the same as "water" in that dialect. towards end of qing dynasty was more largely propagated over wuyi.

祝仙洞， 祝仙茶。
water in that dialect was like "zhui"..

[benm3]

chong an county's publication record : shuixian mother trees are located at shui ji county (in modern day jian yang town), da hu peach hillock's zhu xian dong, during the daoguang era, it was discoverd by a farmer with surname Su, was highly propagated and this tea was called Zhu xian tea, due to the local dialect, zhu xian eventually evolved to shuixian as the words "zhu" in dialect sounds the same as "water" in that dialect. towards end of qing dynasty was more largely propagated over wuyi.

祝仙洞， 祝仙茶。
water in that dialect was like "zhui"..

I think this sounds right for the Wu Yi Shui Xian varietal. But my sources insist that Dan
Cong Shui Xian is not a single varietal, and that it's specifically not the Wu Yi Shui Xian varietal. Rather it is a broad term for many varietals from the Phoenix region. You could, for instance, say that most Phoenix tea is Shui Xian, but that just doesn't mean that it's related to Yan Cha. It is actually related to Yan Cha, but for other reasons. I concede that I might be wrong, but I trust my sources here.

[kyarazen]

chong an county's publication record : shuixian mother trees are located at shui ji county (in modern day jian yang town), da hu peach hillock's zhu xian dong, during the daoguang era, it was discoverd by a farmer with surname Su, was highly propagated and this tea was called Zhu xian tea, due to the local dialect, zhu xian eventually evolved to shuixian as the words "zhu" in dialect sounds the same as "water" in that dialect. towards end of qing dynasty was more largely propagated over wuyi.

祝仙洞， 祝仙茶。
water in that dialect was like "zhui"..

I think this sounds right for the Wu Yi Shui Xian varietal. But my sources insist that Dan
Cong Shui Xian is not a single varietal, and that it's specifically not the Wu Yi Shui Xian varietal. Rather it is a broad term for many varietals from the Phoenix region. You could, for instance, say that most Phoenix tea is Shui Xian, but that just doesn't mean that it's related to Yan Cha. It is actually related to Yan Cha, but for other reasons. I concede that I might be wrong, but I trust my sources here.

if you look in the 1980s "canonized" 茶经that was used by tea farmers etc and all the tea educators.. then feng huang shuixian is a grade. top grade from fenghuang is dancong, 2nd grade lang cai, third grade shuixian.

[benm3]

Yes, Kyarazen, I have read that too. And it is also conforms with my basic poitn that we're not talking about the same thing as Wu Yi Shui Xian. But I want to push back against this view a little bit. If it's always low grade Phonenix tea, then why have I spent $4 per gram on Phoenix Shui Xian?

chong an county's publication record : shuixian mother trees are located at shui ji county (in modern day jian yang town), da hu peach hillock's zhu xian dong, during the daoguang era, it was discoverd by a farmer with surname Su, was highly propagated and this tea was called Zhu xian tea, due to the local dialect, zhu xian eventually evolved to shuixian as the words "zhu" in dialect sounds the same as "water" in that dialect. towards end of qing dynasty was more largely propagated over wuyi.

祝仙洞， 祝仙茶。
water in that dialect was like "zhui"..

I think this sounds right for the Wu Yi Shui Xian varietal. But my sources insist that Dan
Cong Shui Xian is not a single varietal, and that it's specifically not the Wu Yi Shui Xian varietal. Rather it is a broad term for many varietals from the Phoenix region. You could, for instance, say that most Phoenix tea is Shui Xian, but that just doesn't mean that it's related to Yan Cha. It is actually related to Yan Cha, but for other reasons. I concede that I might be wrong, but I trust my sources here.

if you look in the 1980s "canonized" 茶经that was used by tea farmers etc and all the tea educators.. then feng huang shuixian is a grade. top grade from fenghuang is dancong, 2nd grade lang cai, third grade shuixian.

[jayinhk]

My opinion is it is ALL shuixian from Chongshan originally, but with slight and significant differences through selective cultivation practices, as well as processing. I believe the various names for different dancongs and Wuyicha refer to slightly different cultivars (from cultivation from cuttings and germinating seeds from those cuttings in one area over generations). I'm not a botanist (I am a little bit of a bio nerd though), but I'd love to find some research on this topic (perhaps with DNA analysis).

If growing from cuttings vs seed, you can preserve the characteristics of a select phenotype since each cutting is a clone of the mother plant. When you find a suitable phenotype, its characteristics can be preserved this way. I believe all dancong and Wuyicha are different phenotypes of shuixian, and certain phenotypes are the bomb diggety and very popular. All of the original mother plants were on Mt Phoenix.

Terroir also counts for a lot. If you've ever had Muzha tieguanyin, you'll know that it is VERY different in the cup from what is grown in Anxi, even though the tieguanyin in both places came from southern Fujian. The Taiwanese take their fertilization regimens very, very seriously.

And just to add more confusion to the mix...Taiwanese Shuixian, which I bet is very different from dancong and Wuyicha. This would've been grown from cuttings taken across from Fujian (and possibly seeds).

http://blackdragonteabar.blogspot.hk/20 ... -xian.html

[jayinhk]

From TeaAngle.com:

I guess that's one way of putting it. The word "Dancong" literally means "single stem." If you look at an actual Dancong tea plant, you'll see it differs from your standard tea plant in that they're all single trunk trees as opposed to being long interconnected tea bushes. The whole idea of Dancong teas is that all varieties stem from a series of "mother trees". The mother tree cultivar is the Phoenix Shuixian, or water sprite/water fairy oolong. Most Shuixian oolongs in the market are from the Wuyi mountains in Fujian, however, despite having the same name, the flavour profiles of the ones from the Phoenix Mountains in Chaozhou are quite different. We'll delve into this a little further in a future comparison post.

Wild Dancong tea
Wild Dancong trees

So the story goes, back in the day, there was/are a series of mother tree Shuixian cultivars, grown wildly all around. As these grew, got picked and produced into some wonderful teas, the farmers started to notice that certain crops or batches seemed to have developed a particular and unique flavour profile. These farmers would then take a graft from the best trees in the crop and cultivate them until eventually, certain flavour profiles became more pronounced. These flavours then got assigned names such as honey orchid, gardenia, almond fragrance etc. There are constantly "new" aroma varieties being discovered and cultivated but exactly how different they are to the existing varieties is still up for debate.

[kyarazen]

Yes, Kyarazen, I have read that too. And it is also conforms with my basic poitn that we're not talking about the same thing as Wu Yi Shui Xian. But I want to push back against this view a little bit. If it's always low grade Phonenix tea, then why have I spent $4 per gram on Phoenix Shui Xian?

thats when subjectivity comes into play.. and also the hand of merchants and middlemen. nothing wrong with fenghuang shuixian being $4 per gram, although many dancongs and related teas are a small fraction of such a price due to large scale farming, industrial methods and fragrance dopings.

if you consider any tea that is hand made, including the raw leaf cost (wet weight 5:1 final product weight)... if the raw leaf is from a good location or a good farm, or even more exquisite.. to the level of an old tree.. it can never be that low a price..

we also have to be mindful not to force people to accept prices, sometimes such prices are needed to keep a farm/plantation/farmer alive, but not everyone may find it reasonable

[joelbct]

hmm.. top grade dancong is abt same price as top grade yancha.. that is to exclude the bubbled examples.

expect 1 jin 500g to be about 8k-15k usd for either

Wow. If my math is right, 15k for 500g is nearly $900/oz, $30US/g.

The priciest tea I've tasted was the exquisite Keemun "Spring Dawn" black tea the old Ito En flagship store on Madison Ave purchased from time to time, before it closed it's doors. I thought that was steep, at $30 to $40/oz.

I had no idea there were any teas that cost $100 for a session! Supply and demand, and wealth concentration, I suppose.