Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

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Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by VanFersen » Jan 18th, '17, 07:18

I had a discussion a couple of days ago if it is OK to prepare Wuyi Yancha and Dancong in the same unglazed teapot (Yixing, Petr Novak, Nixing or Jianshui) - In my opinion I am a little bit troubled with this idea.

For my example - At the moment I am waiting for two Chao Zhou pots I am going to use only for dancong. At the moment I use a glazed tea pot by Petr Novak for Wuyi and now (not liking it that much) for Dancong too - Why not liking it?

Because this very teapot isn't glazed entirely which means there are some parts unglazed (as small part inside the lid and inside the sprout which are unglazed). Because of its special glaze there are some dots and cracks in the glaze which uncovers the clay underneath. So I wonder if such small spots or cracks could store the aroma and also release it? Or is it to minimal to have any impact on the actual outcome of the taste?

Is there any of you who use a totally unglazed pot for Dancong and Wuyi? What are your experiences and opinions?

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by Tead Off » Jan 18th, '17, 09:35

VanFersen wrote:I had a discussion a couple of days ago if it is OK to prepare Wuyi Yancha and Dancong in the same unglazed teapot (Yixing, Petr Novak, Nixing or Jianshui) - In my opinion I am a little bit troubled with this idea.

For my example - At the moment I am waiting for two Chao Zhou pots I am going to use only for dancong. At the moment I use a glazed tea pot by Petr Novak for Wuyi and now (not liking it that much) for Dancong too - Why not liking it?

Because this very teapot isn't glazed entirely which means there are some parts unglazed (as small part inside the lid and inside the sprout which are unglazed). Because of its special glaze there are some dots and cracks in the glaze which uncovers the clay underneath. So I wonder if such small spots or cracks could store the aroma and also release it? Or is it to minimal to have any impact on the actual outcome of the taste?

Is there any of you who use a totally unglazed pot for Dancong and Wuyi? What are your experiences and opinions?
I use unglazed pots for both Wuyi and Dancong teas. Why? I find that the 'right' unglazed pot, will broaden a teas flavor profile more than a glazed pot can with these types of teas.

Wuyi teas, being so different from Dancong teas, should not be brewed in the same unglazed pot over time. A bit of experimenting with either is fine and won't hurt a pot, but I would not do this over time. Wuyi teas are heavily roasted many times and will build up its own residues in the pot. Dancong, a much more delicate type of tea, does really well in Chao Zhou teapots. And, there some drinkers that like it in porcelain because of its ability to highlight aroma and the higher end of the flavor profile. For Wuyi, I generally use purple clay pots like zini and also hongni clay teapots. But not every hongni or zini teapot will be best for all Wuyi teas. There are differences in the clays and pots that will also affect the teas. It's a long road of experimentation and cost to arrive at what you call 'satisfaction'. Shape of a teapot is also a factor. But, the main thing is to enjoy the teas as each has its own message for you.

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by ethan » Jan 18th, '17, 10:10

Tead Off wrote: Wuyi teas are heavily roasted many times and will build up its own residues in the pot. Dancong, a much more delicate type of tea, does really well in Chao Zhou teapots. And, there some drinkers that like it in porcelain because of its ability to highlight aroma and the higher end of the flavor profile. For Wuyi, I generally use purple clay pots like zini and also hongni clay teapots. But not every hongni or zini teapot will be best for all Wuyi teas. There are differences in the clays and pots that will also affect the teas. It's a long road of experimentation and cost to arrive at what you call 'satisfaction'. Shape of a teapot is also a factor. But, the main thing is to enjoy the teas as each has its own message for you.
Thanks for this thread as timing of it fits w/my recent experience & concerns.

I have enjoyed 2 dancong sessions in the last 2 weeks w/ tea prepared in porcelain gaiwan. The many infusions provided so many flavors, most of which were delicate & light, that I would fear losing some w/ use of porous clay in preparation. Yet, as Teadoff suggests, one learns what works for him & his specific teas by experimentation.

Some of us are slow learners. E.g. I've owned a yixing pot for a few years that I have not dedicated to a type of tea, since I don't know what would be best, yet. (I'm leaning towards med. to dark roasted.) Moreover, I am not sure that that pot effects outcome of preparation much. A teapot just acquired, seems to make a big difference. The unglazed interior of this pot produces tea much different than my glazed gaiwans & noticeably different than yixing. Will I find an ideal use for this new pot? However that plays out, I plan to enjoy my tea & teaware no matter how little mastery I have of them (again, as Teadoff suggests).

Van, did you stop blogging?

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by .m. » Jan 18th, '17, 14:08

VanFersen wrote: Because this very teapot isn't glazed entirely which means there are some parts unglazed (as small part inside the lid and inside the sprout which are unglazed). Because of its special glaze there are some dots and cracks in the glaze which uncovers the clay underneath. So I wonder if such small spots or cracks could store the aroma and also release it? Or is it to minimal to have any impact on the actual outcome of the taste?
Can you really detect this residual taste? Just rinse the pot before use with boiling water and i think you should be ok.

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by VanFersen » Jan 18th, '17, 15:42

@ethan: That's correct I took a break for around a year or so because of certain health problems which caused me to stop drinking tea (not every tea but "real" tea like green, black, puer, oolong, yellow, white...). I was still drinking herbal teas like camomile but everything with caffeine I got shaky and my nerve system couldn't handle it anymore. I think I've overdone it because I was drinking 2-3 liter everyday for around 3 1/2 years and I think this evolved into an intolerance.

But now I only use small pots and just drink 600ml per day not more and this works great (but sometimes there are also some days I don't find the right time to enjoy a full session so I skip and enjoy it the next day).

But I started to release photos and reviews (tasting notes) on my Instagram channel. I plan to release new content on ZeroZen too in the near future but without any pressure anymore. :wink:

Oh by the way my Instagram channel is also called ZeroZen but - https://www.instagram.com/zerozen_artlab/

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by jayinhk » Jan 19th, '17, 01:20

Much like TeadOff I tend to prepare high roast Wuyicha and tieguanyin in early 80s sandy zini shuipings. Modern high roast stuff (which is medium roast compared to the old school roasts) gets brewed in hongni or finer zini. I think Chaozhou clay would work well with the high fire stuff, actually. I've tried dancong in hongni and it's alright, but the aroma is somewhat muted. It is perhaps more muted in Chaozhou clay, IMO, but MUCH smoother, too. Porcelain is perhaps best for dancong since it is such a delicate tea, but you have to brew with care when using lots of leaf as is traditional (and common in Chaozhou today). I've found clay pots make overbrewing much less of an issue, especially with Chaozhou clay.

I wouldn't worry too much about 'coloring' the aroma of your pot with long-term use. Even my most used pots, which have seen hundreds of sessions (maybe over 1,000 with some pots), don't smell like tea all that much after a rinse with boiling water.

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by Bok » Jan 19th, '17, 03:09

.m. wrote: Can you really detect this residual taste? Just rinse the pot before use with boiling water and i think you should be ok.
The residual taste is overrated/-imagined in most cases…

Which anyone can simply confirm by putting hot water in the pot and have a sip.

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by VanFersen » Jan 19th, '17, 04:18

Because of Clay and aroma after a while: I use a Zi Ni Yixing for around 4 years now only dedicated to yancha. This one is my most used teapot and I've noticed that its inside really changed. I mean this myth that you are able to taste real tea just by adding boiling water into the pot is - yeah a myth BUT what I really noticed is that those pots and especially this one I used the most really scent very rock-ish and mineral inside because of the massive use of yancha. Before that this wasn't the case. So in some points there is an impact on the clay but not as mythical as some sources might want you to believe.

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by jayinhk » Jan 19th, '17, 06:10

VanFersen wrote:Because of Clay and aroma after a while: I use a Zi Ni Yixing for around 4 years now only dedicated to yancha. This one is my most used teapot and I've noticed that its inside really changed. I mean this myth that you are able to taste real tea just by adding boiling water into the pot is - yeah a myth BUT what I really noticed is that those pots and especially this one I used the most really scent very rock-ish and mineral inside because of the massive use of yancha. Before that this wasn't the case. So in some points there is an impact on the clay but not as mythical as some sources might want you to believe.
Dancong and Wuyicha are really very similar, so it's really not a stretch to brew dancong in a pot used for Wuyicha. If you've ever had Qi Lan or Rougui, they often have similar bouquets to dancong.

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by Tead Off » Jan 19th, '17, 08:23

jayinhk wrote:
VanFersen wrote:Because of Clay and aroma after a while: I use a Zi Ni Yixing for around 4 years now only dedicated to yancha. This one is my most used teapot and I've noticed that its inside really changed. I mean this myth that you are able to taste real tea just by adding boiling water into the pot is - yeah a myth BUT what I really noticed is that those pots and especially this one I used the most really scent very rock-ish and mineral inside because of the massive use of yancha. Before that this wasn't the case. So in some points there is an impact on the clay but not as mythical as some sources might want you to believe.
Dancong and Wuyicha are really very similar, so it's really not a stretch to brew dancong in a pot used for Wuyicha. If you've ever had Qi Lan or Rougui, they often have similar bouquets to dancong.
These teas are very different and have no relation in flavor profile or aroma to Dancong teas as they are processed differently and roasted. There are some Dancong teas that are roasted but nothing like Yancha. If my Dancong teas had bouqets similar to Yancha, I'd be concerned.

Like VanFersen's zini pot, mine also have that 'rock-ish', mineral buildup that is unique to Yancha. That is something to treasure and I wouldn't mix other teas with it with regular use. Of course, if one doesn't care, then anything goes.

In kettles, the Japanese say not to mix different water inside a tetsubin. The water leaves a scale buildup that has its own unique taste. That can change with the use of a different water. The recommendation is to clean it of its scale buildup and use the water that you will normally use in it to be safe.

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by jayinhk » Jan 19th, '17, 08:35

Tead Off wrote:
jayinhk wrote:
VanFersen wrote:Because of Clay and aroma after a while: I use a Zi Ni Yixing for around 4 years now only dedicated to yancha. This one is my most used teapot and I've noticed that its inside really changed. I mean this myth that you are able to taste real tea just by adding boiling water into the pot is - yeah a myth BUT what I really noticed is that those pots and especially this one I used the most really scent very rock-ish and mineral inside because of the massive use of yancha. Before that this wasn't the case. So in some points there is an impact on the clay but not as mythical as some sources might want you to believe.
Dancong and Wuyicha are really very similar, so it's really not a stretch to brew dancong in a pot used for Wuyicha. If you've ever had Qi Lan or Rougui, they often have similar bouquets to dancong.
These teas are very different and have no relation in flavor profile or aroma to Dancong teas as they are processed differently and roasted. There are some Dancong teas that are roasted but nothing like Yancha. If my Dancong teas had bouqets similar to Yancha, I'd be concerned.

Like VanFersen's zini pot, mine also have that 'rock-ish', mineral buildup that is unique to Yancha. That is something to treasure and I wouldn't mix other teas with it with regular use. Of course, if one doesn't care, then anything goes.

In kettles, the Japanese say not to mix different water inside a tetsubin. The water leaves a scale buildup that has its own unique taste. That can change with the use of a different water. The recommendation is to clean it of its scale buildup and use the water that you will normally use in it to be safe.
They're all oolongs, grown within 300km of each other, and all oxidized and roasted to some degree. They are more similar than different IMO. In fact, shuixian was taken to the Wuyi mountains from the Chongshan region. I don't drink green dancong myself--just the roasty stuff. Not a fan of the green dancong that's popular now.

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by VanFersen » Jan 19th, '17, 10:01

I have to agree with tead off in this case too because Dancong is totally a different oolong as Wuyis are. I never ever had any Dancong which was nearly similar to a Wuyi and I drink a lot of those teas. In my case I was just concern if it would do any harm to use my 90% glazed teapot for a short time for Dancong too until my chao zhou arrives - because normally I hate mixing Oolongs. Can't stand it. Like I said this very teapot by Petr Novak got some dots and cracks, also some none glazed small parts but for a better understanding here I took a picture of it :wink:
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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by jayinhk » Jan 19th, '17, 10:54

IMO it'll be fine! Dancong is considered shuixian varietal by Hojo, too, and there are similarities in the way old bushes are grown in both places. Too lazy to post quotes from Hojo, but he says what makes dancong dancong is a low temperature roast (under 100 Celsius) vs hotter temperatures for Wuyicha. He says after fermentation you'd never know the maocha would later become dancong, so it's all about the roast. I've had lower roast Wuyicha that resembles dancong (I've found around 100 Celsius, all var. sinensis oolongs give off a somewhat similar orchid/osmanthus bouquet from my own roasting experiments). There are of course differences from terroir and fermentation, and genetic drift from cultivation of specific cultivars in each area over centuries.

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by Tead Off » Jan 19th, '17, 11:45

jayinhk wrote:IMO it'll be fine! Dancong is considered shuixian varietal by Hojo, too, and there are similarities in the way old bushes are grown in both places. Too lazy to post quotes from Hojo, but he says what makes dancong dancong is a low temperature roast (under 100 Celsius) vs hotter temperatures for Wuyicha. He says after fermentation you'd never know the maocha would later become dancong, so it's all about the roast. I've had lower roast Wuyicha that resembles dancong (I've found around 100 Celsius, all var. sinensis oolongs give off a somewhat similar orchid/osmanthus bouquet from my own roasting experiments). There are of course differences from terroir and fermentation, and genetic drift from cultivation of specific cultivars in each area over centuries.
You have to factor in all of the differences from one region to another, plus the way a tea is processed. No Dancong tea is processed to resemble Wuyi teas, even the Shui Xian cultivar. And, none of these teas are fermented. Oolongs are oxidized, not fermented. There are so many different types of oolongs that don't resemble each other at all. TGY and Rou Gui? Not even all black/red teas can be equated as their processing and terroir will render them miles apart. Just think about Darjeelings and Assamese or Yunnan blacks. Totally different flavors. But, somewhere in their flavors, there is a similar element which makes them all teas. The differences seem to outweigh the similarities. That's what makes tea so interesting. Home roasting doesn't equate with the processing that tea undergoes after it is just picked.

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by ethan » Jan 19th, '17, 12:02

VanFersen wrote: I was just concern if it would do any harm to use my 90% glazed teapot for a short time for Dancong too until my chao zhou arrives - because normally I hate mixing Oolongs. Can't stand it. Like I said this very teapot by Petr Novak got some dots and cracks, also some none gl
So, Van, you were worried about the 10% non-glazed surface & perhaps some cracks & dots getting permanently seasoned by several tea sessions while you await another pot! Led to interesting discussion/argument; however, we know you are smart enough to have figured out yourself there was nothing to worry about. I am glad you didn't. I love these civilized disagreements over .categories of tea etc. (Now that I mention that, I'm sure the thread will soon get inactive.)

Van, that teapot looks tiny. How much liquid does it hold? I'm guessing not > 50 ml. Cheers

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