Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

Owes its flavors to oxidation levels between green & black tea.


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Jan 19th, '17, 12:08
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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by jayinhk » Jan 19th, '17, 12:08

Tead Off wrote:
jayinhk wrote:IMO it'll be fine! Dancong is considered shuixian varietal by Hojo, too, and there are similarities in the way old bushes are grown in both places. Too lazy to post quotes from Hojo, but he says what makes dancong dancong is a low temperature roast (under 100 Celsius) vs hotter temperatures for Wuyicha. He says after fermentation you'd never know the maocha would later become dancong, so it's all about the roast. I've had lower roast Wuyicha that resembles dancong (I've found around 100 Celsius, all var. sinensis oolongs give off a somewhat similar orchid/osmanthus bouquet from my own roasting experiments). There are of course differences from terroir and fermentation, and genetic drift from cultivation of specific cultivars in each area over centuries.
You have to factor in all of the differences from one region to another, plus the way a tea is processed. No Dancong tea is processed to resemble Wuyi teas, even the Shui Xian cultivar. And, none of these teas are fermented. Oolongs are oxidized, not fermented. There are so many different types of oolongs that don't resemble each other at all. TGY and Rou Gui? Not even all black/red teas can be equated as their processing and terroir will render them miles apart. Just think about Darjeelings and Assamese or Yunnan blacks. Totally different flavors. But, somewhere in their flavors, there is a similar element which makes them all teas. The differences seem to outweigh the similarities. That's what makes tea so interesting. Home roasting doesn't equate with the processing that tea undergoes after it is just picked.
Yes, of course it is oxidation vs fermentation...I was thinking in Hojo's words:

http://hojotea.com/en/posts-43/

And yes, there is more going on than just roast. The level of oxidation counts for a lot I feel. Dancong and shuixian are the same cultivar, they've just drifted apart over centuries, but drinking them, they aren't anything alike. A vendor here in HK (a well known one, at that) sells Mt Phoenix Shuixian, which is a dancong!

TGY and rougui are definitely very different, regardless of roast level. The difference between certain Wuyi teas and dancong is much smaller, however, and I have some really lovely rougui from an old school HK vendor that has a powerful orchid flavor. It's definitely not dancong, but the aromas are similar for sure.

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by VanFersen » Jan 19th, '17, 13:30

Au contraire mon frere :D it holds around 180ml :wink:

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by onjinone » Jan 19th, '17, 15:33

Tead Off wrote:
jayinhk wrote:IMO it'll be fine! Dancong is considered shuixian varietal by Hojo, too, and there are similarities in the way old bushes are grown in both places. Too lazy to post quotes from Hojo, but he says what makes dancong dancong is a low temperature roast (under 100 Celsius) vs hotter temperatures for Wuyicha. He says after fermentation you'd never know the maocha would later become dancong, so it's all about the roast. I've had lower roast Wuyicha that resembles dancong (I've found around 100 Celsius, all var. sinensis oolongs give off a somewhat similar orchid/osmanthus bouquet from my own roasting experiments). There are of course differences from terroir and fermentation, and genetic drift from cultivation of specific cultivars in each area over centuries.
You have to factor in all of the differences from one region to another, plus the way a tea is processed. No Dancong tea is processed to resemble Wuyi teas, even the Shui Xian cultivar. And, none of these teas are fermented. Oolongs are oxidized, not fermented. There are so many different types of oolongs that don't resemble each other at all. TGY and Rou Gui? Not even all black/red teas can be equated as their processing and terroir will render them miles apart. Just think about Darjeelings and Assamese or Yunnan blacks. Totally different flavors. But, somewhere in their flavors, there is a similar element which makes them all teas. The differences seem to outweigh the similarities. That's what makes tea so interesting. Home roasting doesn't equate with the processing that tea undergoes after it is just picked.
I completely agree. It's differences within the same tea categories that makes all the difference. The many variations within processing methods for the same teas are another aspect that can be complex yet so fascinating.

But to the original question for this thread, I would brew them in separate pots for reasons tead off has already mentioned.
VanFersen wrote:I have to agree with tead off in this case too because Dancong is totally a different oolong as Wuyis are. I never ever had any Dancong which was nearly similar to a Wuyi and I drink a lot of those teas. In my case I was just concern if it would do any harm to use my 90% glazed teapot for a short time for Dancong too until my chao zhou arrives - because normally I hate mixing Oolongs. Can't stand it. Like I said this very teapot by Petr Novak got some dots and cracks, also some none glazed small parts but for a better understanding here I took a picture of it :wink:
VanFerson, had to say that is a very beautiful pot.

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by VanFersen » Jan 20th, '17, 04:06

Thank I love this teapot too I think Novak is one of the best potter out there - in my opinion. :wink:

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by hopeofdawn » Jan 25th, '17, 13:32

Can't add anything to the question being asked, but wanted to say that you have a beautiful pot there! :)

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by Noonie » Jan 26th, '17, 06:06

I recently used a Yixing, that had only brewed Rou Gui for two years, to brew Dan Cong. The first time there were definite mineral overtones. The taste was...confusing. I've now used the yixing 5-7 times with the Dan Cong and the mineral taste is gone. It's now closer to the flavour of Dan Cong when brewed in a Gaiwan, but smoother.

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by jayinhk » Jan 26th, '17, 08:11

Noonie wrote:I recently used a Yixing, that had only brewed Rou Gui for two years, to brew Dan Cong. The first time there were definite mineral overtones. The taste was...confusing. I've now used the yixing 5-7 times with the Dan Cong and the mineral taste is gone. It's now closer to the flavour of Dan Cong when brewed in a Gaiwan, but smoother.
Interesting, thanks for sharing!

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by benm3 » Jan 26th, '17, 11:38

I don't think Hojo means that Wu Yi "Shui Xian" and Phoenix "Shui Xian" are the same varietal. It is my understanding that they are entirely different varietals that just happen to have the same name.

jayinhk wrote:
Tead Off wrote:
jayinhk wrote:IMO it'll be fine! Dancong is considered shuixian varietal by Hojo, too, and there are similarities in the way old bushes are grown in both places. Too lazy to post quotes from Hojo, but he says what makes dancong dancong is a low temperature roast (under 100 Celsius) vs hotter temperatures for Wuyicha. He says after fermentation you'd never know the maocha would later become dancong, so it's all about the roast. I've had lower roast Wuyicha that resembles dancong (I've found around 100 Celsius, all var. sinensis oolongs give off a somewhat similar orchid/osmanthus bouquet from my own roasting experiments). There are of course differences from terroir and fermentation, and genetic drift from cultivation of specific cultivars in each area over centuries.
You have to factor in all of the differences from one region to another, plus the way a tea is processed. No Dancong tea is processed to resemble Wuyi teas, even the Shui Xian cultivar. And, none of these teas are fermented. Oolongs are oxidized, not fermented. There are so many different types of oolongs that don't resemble each other at all. TGY and Rou Gui? Not even all black/red teas can be equated as their processing and terroir will render them miles apart. Just think about Darjeelings and Assamese or Yunnan blacks. Totally different flavors. But, somewhere in their flavors, there is a similar element which makes them all teas. The differences seem to outweigh the similarities. That's what makes tea so interesting. Home roasting doesn't equate with the processing that tea undergoes after it is just picked.
Yes, of course it is oxidation vs fermentation...I was thinking in Hojo's words:

http://hojotea.com/en/posts-43/

And yes, there is more going on than just roast. The level of oxidation counts for a lot I feel. Dancong and shuixian are the same cultivar, they've just drifted apart over centuries, but drinking them, they aren't anything alike. A vendor here in HK (a well known one, at that) sells Mt Phoenix Shuixian, which is a dancong!

TGY and rougui are definitely very different, regardless of roast level. The difference between certain Wuyi teas and dancong is much smaller, however, and I have some really lovely rougui from an old school HK vendor that has a powerful orchid flavor. It's definitely not dancong, but the aromas are similar for sure.

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by jayinhk » Jan 26th, '17, 21:15

"Phoenix Oolong is made of the same tea cultivar as Wu-yi tea, it is also Rock Tea as Wu-yi Tea and the tea leaf of Phoenix Oolong is plucked from the very old tea trees. Nevertheless, this tea is not as expensive as Wu-yi tea despite its quality is very outstanding. Considering its strong fruity flavor, deep after taste, overwhelming variety and realistic price as compared to Wu-yi oolong, we absolutely recommend this tea to customers who are looking for the super premium deep fermented Chinese oolong."

http://hojotea.com/article_e/phoenix_e.htm

The red highlight above is Hojo's, btw, not mine.

Try certain lower roast Rougui or Shuixian and the difference between Wuyicha and dancong narrows considerably. I have some top grade lower roast rougui and shuixian from one of the oldest merchants in town that would knock your socks off. Not cheap, but really good tea. Zhangping shuixian tastes more like the shuixian we're familiar with, of course, and I recently got a rolled shuixian that is quite interesting too!

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by benm3 » Jan 26th, '17, 22:16

Honestly, I can't really tell what Hojo is trying to say there. Yes, Phoenix Shui Xian and Wuyi Shui Xian are both tea, but they are entirely different varietals. In fact, it's even more complex than that, as Phoenix Shui Xian is a sort of catch-phrase for many different varietals grown in the Phoenix Mountain region, while Wu Yi Shui Xian refers to just one of hundreds of varietals grown in that region. Also, the claim that Phoenix Oolong is "...not as expensive as Wu-yi tea despite its quality is very outstanding.." is just so wrong. Good Phoenix tea is at least as crazy-expensive as good Yan Cha. Heck, I might say that it is even more expensive.
jayinhk wrote:"Phoenix Oolong is made of the same tea cultivar as Wu-yi tea, it is also Rock Tea as Wu-yi Tea and the tea leaf of Phoenix Oolong is plucked from the very old tea trees. Nevertheless, this tea is not as expensive as Wu-yi tea despite its quality is very outstanding. Considering its strong fruity flavor, deep after taste, overwhelming variety and realistic price as compared to Wu-yi oolong, we absolutely recommend this tea to customers who are looking for the super premium deep fermented Chinese oolong."

http://hojotea.com/article_e/phoenix_e.htm

The red highlight above is Hojo's, btw, not mine.

Try certain lower roast Rougui or Shuixian and the difference between Wuyicha and dancong narrows considerably. I have some top grade lower roast rougui and shuixian from one of the oldest merchants in town that would knock your socks off. Not cheap, but really good tea. Zhangping shuixian tastes more like the shuixian we're familiar with, of course, and I recently got a rolled shuixian that is quite interesting too!

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by jayinhk » Jan 26th, '17, 22:27

Hojo is right on the money. Dancong is shuixian varietal...the difference is processing and perhaps terroir, even though the distance between Wuyishan and Mt Phoenix is 300 km or so and the parent rock (which contributes to the soil) and climate are very similar.

Also top grade Wuyicha costs more per gram than gold..dancong hasn't reached those levels...yet! :)

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by Zared » Jan 26th, '17, 23:48

jayinhk wrote:Hojo is right on the money. Dancong is shuixian varietal...the difference is processing and perhaps terroir, even though the distance between Wuyishan and Mt Phoenix is 300 km or so and the parent rock (which contributes to the soil) and climate are very similar.

Also top grade Wuyicha costs more per gram than gold..dancong hasn't reached those levels...yet! :)



I think you can find similar prices for DC when you look at what's being sold to actual tea drinkers. Tea habitats's 2016 line up has plenty of $2-3\g DC. That's pretty similar to yancha. Using auction prices for rare yancha isn't really proof that that DC is cheaper tea.

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by jayinhk » Jan 27th, '17, 00:38

Zared wrote:
jayinhk wrote:Hojo is right on the money. Dancong is shuixian varietal...the difference is processing and perhaps terroir, even though the distance between Wuyishan and Mt Phoenix is 300 km or so and the parent rock (which contributes to the soil) and climate are very similar.

Also top grade Wuyicha costs more per gram than gold..dancong hasn't reached those levels...yet! :)



I think you can find similar prices for DC when you look at what's being sold to actual tea drinkers. Tea habitats's 2016 line up has plenty of $2-3\g DC. That's pretty similar to yancha. Using auction prices for rare yancha isn't really proof that that DC is cheaper tea.
There's PLENTY of yancha that goes for more than $2-3 a g in China, even if we ignore auction prices. Most of us aren't drinking top grade yancha. $2-3 a gram is not going to get you anywhere near top grade yancha in today's market. If you read Kyarazen's recent posts about his trip to Wuyishan, you'll get a better idea of what Wuyicha prices are like for the good stuff.

TeaHabitat is charging a pretty hefty premium: they have to to stay open. Selling small amounts at retail level to Americans with a brick and mortar operation in California absolutely necessitates it. Their prices don't reflect the reality of pricing on the Mainland.

Dancong has become much more popular in the last five-to-ten years, but that demand is driven from within the Mainland. Prior to this, dancong was seen as a novelty tea by most. Same deal with heicha; there simply wasn't much interest in it.

Overseas buyers make up a VERY small portion of the demand for dancong. Wuyicha is still in much more demand on the Mainland than dancong. You can get everything from very cheap plantation Wuyicha all the way on up to nosebleed prices. Similarly I can get dancong at ridiculously low prices, but I wouldn't want to drink it (nor would you).

The gap between dancong and Wuyicha has narrowed some, though, so Hojo's article may have been written a while ago, but top grade Wuyicha is still FAR more expensive than the most expensive dancong. Hojo buys his tea in China and sells it in Malaysia, so he knows what's actually happening out this way.

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by debunix » Jan 27th, '17, 01:32

I have gone back and forth between Dan Cong and roasted Wuyi, Anxi, and Taiwanese oolongs in the same Petr Novák tree bark pot, which is completely unglazed inside. It gracefully goes back and forth, without any notable diminution of my enjoyment of any of these teas. I probably drink at least 8 or 10 times as much of the others as of the Dan Cong, just because the Dan Congs are both more precious in price and more demanding of my attention. I have never done a head to head comparison to see if they are better in the tree bark vs the Chao Zhou pot that is my other go-to pot for them.

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Re: Dancong and Wuyi in the same teapot?

by kyarazen » Jan 27th, '17, 02:02

hmm.. top grade dancong is abt same price as top grade yancha.. ;) that is to exclude the bubbled examples.

expect 1 jin 500g to be about 8k-15k usd for either :shock: :shock:

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