This is the kind of topic that seems to come up here every few years, typically only in regards to withdrawal, last in 2013:
http://www.teachat.com/viewtopic.php?f ... al#p254278
or previously here, in 2010: http://www.teachat.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... al#p163795
I just wrote a blog post covering more about the effects of caffeine, normal recommended limits for intake, and related to possible negative side effects, and also on withdrawal:
http://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.co ... feine.html
It was a lot to cover, and of course it ran long. Some interesting ideas came up (after a lot of digging into journal sources) that I've not seen discussed elsewhere. I don't want to re-write all that post but I'll mention a few points.
-the normal recommended limit for daily caffeine intake is typically stated as 400 mg (which would vary by person, along with the effects). That's around four cups of coffee, maybe more like ten cups of tea, but how you prepare those and the types varies that level a lot.
-it's possible to become dependent on caffeine--addicted--based only on taking in 100 mg daily, potentially only for a week or two. One interesting observation was that some studies of the positive effects of caffeine on reaction time, short term memory and such may often be picking up the benefits of alleviating normal withdrawal in subjects that aren't clear on being addicted to caffeine in the first place. Strange, right? The main paper I cite on withdrawal study and methodology covers a lot on how they tried to work around isolating different factors but it seems possible they might not have completely cleared that one, or that it would require an initial study to learn how to in the first place.
-if someone takes in 500 to 600 mg. per day they might experience negative side effects (anxiety, etc.), but for over 1000 mg. anxiety symptoms resembling a mental illness condition is common (caffeinism). I pass on checking on that myself.
-the main negative effect of caffeine intake may not relate to anxiety, or any relatively direct side-effect; it could instead relate to problems with caffeine offsetting normal REM cycle sleep patterns (dream states), which then causes negative effects. This has nothing to do with an inability to sleep; the two could be completely unrelated. To me this was the most interesting part of the review, and also one that isn't as developed in research, or even explored much, related to what I could find through Google Scholar and Research Gate search.
He's no longer active on here but I want to credit the author of Bear's blog for writing about his own experiences and starting me on this review, content that I also cite in the post.
Re: Effects of caffeine and withdrawal
Thank you for doing all of that research! I'm both caffeine sensitive and a heavy tea drinker. Caffeine definitely keeps me up and wakes me up early, so I end up needing a daytime nap to function better. I should really restrict myself to one tea a day.john.b wrote:This is the kind of topic that seems to come up here every few years, typically only in regards to withdrawal, last in 2013:
http://www.teachat.com/viewtopic.php?f ... al#p254278
or previously here, in 2010: http://www.teachat.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... al#p163795
I just wrote a blog post covering more about the effects of caffeine, normal recommended limits for intake, and related to possible negative side effects, and also on withdrawal:
http://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.co ... feine.html
It was a lot to cover, and of course it ran long. Some interesting ideas came up (after a lot of digging into journal sources) that I've not seen discussed elsewhere. I don't want to re-write all that post but I'll mention a few points.
-the normal recommended limit for daily caffeine intake is typically stated as 400 mg (which would vary by person, along with the effects). That's around four cups of coffee, maybe more like ten cups of tea, but how you prepare those and the types varies that level a lot.
-it's possible to become dependent on caffeine--addicted--based only on taking in 100 mg daily, potentially only for a week or two. One interesting observation was that some studies of the positive effects of caffeine on reaction time, short term memory and such may often be picking up the benefits of alleviating normal withdrawal in subjects that aren't clear on being addicted to caffeine in the first place. Strange, right? The main paper I cite on withdrawal study and methodology covers a lot on how they tried to work around isolating different factors but it seems possible they might not have completely cleared that one, or that it would require an initial study to learn how to in the first place.
-if someone takes in 500 to 600 mg. per day they might experience negative side effects (anxiety, etc.), but for over 1000 mg. anxiety symptoms resembling a mental illness condition is common (caffeinism). I pass on checking on that myself.
-the main negative effect of caffeine intake may not relate to anxiety, or any relatively direct side-effect; it could instead relate to problems with caffeine offsetting normal REM cycle sleep patterns (dream states), which then causes negative effects. This has nothing to do with an inability to sleep; the two could be completely unrelated. To me this was the most interesting part of the review, and also one that isn't as developed in research, or even explored much, related to what I could find through Google Scholar and Research Gate search.
He's no longer active on here but I want to credit the author of Bear's blog for writing about his own experiences and starting me on this review, content that I also cite in the post.
Re: Effects of caffeine and withdrawal
Between September 2015 and September 2016 I did not drink any tea. I decided I would do a self-experiment and see what the long term benefits (if any) there were of removing habitual tea and particularly caffeine from my system.
The impetus for this experiment was the problem of getting headaches whenever I would skip a day of drinking tea. These headaches would grow slowly, starting in the morning as a dull constant background ache to later in the afternoon developing into a horrible throbbing pain. The pain was always made worse when moving my head from an upright position. Bending over was particularly painful, as I felt the pressure in my head multiply.
This became a consistent by-product of tea/caffeine withdrawal, and once the headaches started I was stuck dealing with it for the rest of the day, even drinking tea at that point didn't seem to help much until the caffeine had penetrated through my system which would take hours. Of course the "solution" to this was to just drink tea daily, something I enjoyed doing anyway. But this was not an adequate answer to the problem really, and doubts about long-term caffeine intake began growing in the back of my mind.
So, I decided to cut out all caffeine cold-turkey on September 15, 2015. It took 3 days to get over the initial horrible headaches (even migraine level) and it took a full week to get over the inevitable lethargy and sick feeling, brought on by the lack of caffeine and pain. Afterward I did seem to experience an initial boost, where sleep felt more restful and dreams were more vivid, leading me to suspect I was getting a more healthful sleep without the constant caffeine drip. Because of the improved sleep I also felt more energetic in the morning, and had a better attitude toward getting out of bed and facing the day. One almost could say I was "perky", which is not an adjective I would have used to describe myself, uh, ever.
These initial improvements were very promising but started to lessen after a few weeks, and within a month of stopping tea and caffeine everything felt pretty normal again. Sleep was back to my regular tossing and turning, or waking up in the middle of the night, and getting up in the morning felt as dreadful as ever
I did not experience any long-term effects after removing caffeine for a full year. I still had the occasional heart palpitation (or flutter) as I had while habitually drinking tea. Sleep was as chaotic as it had always been. etc. Other than the first week I didn't feel any physical attachment to caffeine, though I still had an emotional attachment to tea and would still check in here at teachat occasionally. I didn't feel any real pull to go back and drink tea either, I felt fully in control of what I decided to do.
So after 1 year exactly on September 15, 2016 I decided to have some tea and see what happened. First of all, it tasted wonderful Beyond that though I didn't feel the caffeine doing anything to my system. I've never felt any kind of caffeine jolt from tea, and didn't feel it even after abstaining for a year. My sleep patterns or morning demeanor did not change either. After a couple days of tea drinking I stopped again to see what would happen... and of course I got caffeine withdrawal headaches, just as before.
All this leads me to believe that caffeine has an immediate effect on my system, regardless of acclimatization. Being off of caffeine for a long period of time does not matter at all. What matters is the habitual intake of caffeine, the bad effects of which seem to start almost immediately. I can drink tea one day and then stop the next day without issue. But I can't drink tea two days in a row and then stop the third day without running into headaches and withdrawal. I've repeated this enough times to know it works as a general rule for me.
Of course now I'm drinking tea every day again
But with all this embedded knowledge I can hack my caffeine dependency when I need to. For example if I'm going on vacation and won't have access to regular intake, I will slowly reduce the amount of tea I drink over the course of the prior week or two to prepare for this lack of drug access
The main reason I subjected myself to all this was to gain some kind of "true" experiential knowledge about what tea drinking was doing to me. It wasn't a horrible experiment apart from the first few days, I actually picked up and lived my life pretty much as normal without any long-term negative or positive side effects. (shrug)
The impetus for this experiment was the problem of getting headaches whenever I would skip a day of drinking tea. These headaches would grow slowly, starting in the morning as a dull constant background ache to later in the afternoon developing into a horrible throbbing pain. The pain was always made worse when moving my head from an upright position. Bending over was particularly painful, as I felt the pressure in my head multiply.
This became a consistent by-product of tea/caffeine withdrawal, and once the headaches started I was stuck dealing with it for the rest of the day, even drinking tea at that point didn't seem to help much until the caffeine had penetrated through my system which would take hours. Of course the "solution" to this was to just drink tea daily, something I enjoyed doing anyway. But this was not an adequate answer to the problem really, and doubts about long-term caffeine intake began growing in the back of my mind.
So, I decided to cut out all caffeine cold-turkey on September 15, 2015. It took 3 days to get over the initial horrible headaches (even migraine level) and it took a full week to get over the inevitable lethargy and sick feeling, brought on by the lack of caffeine and pain. Afterward I did seem to experience an initial boost, where sleep felt more restful and dreams were more vivid, leading me to suspect I was getting a more healthful sleep without the constant caffeine drip. Because of the improved sleep I also felt more energetic in the morning, and had a better attitude toward getting out of bed and facing the day. One almost could say I was "perky", which is not an adjective I would have used to describe myself, uh, ever.
These initial improvements were very promising but started to lessen after a few weeks, and within a month of stopping tea and caffeine everything felt pretty normal again. Sleep was back to my regular tossing and turning, or waking up in the middle of the night, and getting up in the morning felt as dreadful as ever
I did not experience any long-term effects after removing caffeine for a full year. I still had the occasional heart palpitation (or flutter) as I had while habitually drinking tea. Sleep was as chaotic as it had always been. etc. Other than the first week I didn't feel any physical attachment to caffeine, though I still had an emotional attachment to tea and would still check in here at teachat occasionally. I didn't feel any real pull to go back and drink tea either, I felt fully in control of what I decided to do.
So after 1 year exactly on September 15, 2016 I decided to have some tea and see what happened. First of all, it tasted wonderful
Beyond that though I didn't feel the caffeine doing anything to my system. I've never felt any kind of caffeine jolt from tea, and didn't feel it even after abstaining for a year. My sleep patterns or morning demeanor did not change either. After a couple days of tea drinking I stopped again to see what would happen... and of course I got caffeine withdrawal headaches, just as before.All this leads me to believe that caffeine has an immediate effect on my system, regardless of acclimatization. Being off of caffeine for a long period of time does not matter at all. What matters is the habitual intake of caffeine, the bad effects of which seem to start almost immediately. I can drink tea one day and then stop the next day without issue. But I can't drink tea two days in a row and then stop the third day without running into headaches and withdrawal. I've repeated this enough times to know it works as a general rule for me.
Of course now I'm drinking tea every day again
But with all this embedded knowledge I can hack my caffeine dependency when I need to. For example if I'm going on vacation and won't have access to regular intake, I will slowly reduce the amount of tea I drink over the course of the prior week or two to prepare for this lack of drug access The main reason I subjected myself to all this was to gain some kind of "true" experiential knowledge about what tea drinking was doing to me. It wasn't a horrible experiment apart from the first few days, I actually picked up and lived my life pretty much as normal without any long-term negative or positive side effects. (shrug)
Re: Effects of caffeine and withdrawal
Interesting that you worked through the issue based on your own experience like that. The part that would throw off research results being informative seems to be that different people would experience different patterns based on different levels of intake.
It's interesting that this personal account amounts to a case study, but the results aren't so easy to sort out. Some degree of insomnia seemed normal with or without caffeine intake in this experiment, which is an odd starting point.
I had more severe insomnia in the past, initiated mainly by a loud tropical bird waking me up nightly, but with two young kids waking up a lot has long since been normal. A doctor I visited about it ran through all the basic factors, trying to sleep at routine times, limiting caffeine, restricting television or phone monitor exposure just prior to time to sleep. Eventually it sorted itself out.
According to that one research article cited in the post someone can initiate caffeine dependency based on as low an intake as 100 mg per day, either one cup of coffee or three cups of tea, over less than a week's time. I was really trying to determine what happens when someone takes in 300-400 mg per day for months (roughly 10 cups of tea per day). That would relate to the long term effects of being at the high end of what medical references input seems to accept as normal, but I didn't get far with that.
It's interesting that this personal account amounts to a case study, but the results aren't so easy to sort out. Some degree of insomnia seemed normal with or without caffeine intake in this experiment, which is an odd starting point.
I had more severe insomnia in the past, initiated mainly by a loud tropical bird waking me up nightly, but with two young kids waking up a lot has long since been normal. A doctor I visited about it ran through all the basic factors, trying to sleep at routine times, limiting caffeine, restricting television or phone monitor exposure just prior to time to sleep. Eventually it sorted itself out.
According to that one research article cited in the post someone can initiate caffeine dependency based on as low an intake as 100 mg per day, either one cup of coffee or three cups of tea, over less than a week's time. I was really trying to determine what happens when someone takes in 300-400 mg per day for months (roughly 10 cups of tea per day). That would relate to the long term effects of being at the high end of what medical references input seems to accept as normal, but I didn't get far with that.
Dec 6th, '16, 00:44
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Re: Effects of caffeine and withdrawal
Perhaps someone was losing sleep worrying about how much caffeine he had consumed, rather than the direct effect of the caffeine.
Perhaps someone can drink houjicha or slightly oxidized teas, rather than a lot of black tea to limit caffeine intake.
Perhaps someone gets a headache when he stops drinking tea because he is not drinking enough....
Perhaps there are days when tea is one's only pleasure; so, is better sleeping worth giving up a day's only pleasure?
Time for sleep. Cheers & goodnight
Perhaps someone can drink houjicha or slightly oxidized teas, rather than a lot of black tea to limit caffeine intake.
Perhaps someone gets a headache when he stops drinking tea because he is not drinking enough....
Perhaps there are days when tea is one's only pleasure; so, is better sleeping worth giving up a day's only pleasure?
Time for sleep. Cheers & goodnight
Re: Effects of caffeine and withdrawal
It occurred to me since that post that there really could be a separate consideration related to the long term consumption of Theanine.
I was really interested in what the effect would be of ingesting a good bit of caffeine over a period of years, something that isn't really being studied, but the same concern could apply to Theanine.
http://www.berkeleywellness.com/supplem ... mness-pill
Dietary supplements containing L-theanine are promoted for their ability to promote relaxation, reduce stress, and improve sleep, as well as boost concentration and alertness.....
[related test results discussed]
But most of the studies have been small and short-term, and almost all were limited to children or young adults. Many have had methodological weaknesses, and the findings have been inconsistent. And a few studies suggest detrimental effects—on cognitive test performance, for instance.
I was really interested in what the effect would be of ingesting a good bit of caffeine over a period of years, something that isn't really being studied, but the same concern could apply to Theanine.
http://www.berkeleywellness.com/supplem ... mness-pill
Dietary supplements containing L-theanine are promoted for their ability to promote relaxation, reduce stress, and improve sleep, as well as boost concentration and alertness.....
[related test results discussed]
But most of the studies have been small and short-term, and almost all were limited to children or young adults. Many have had methodological weaknesses, and the findings have been inconsistent. And a few studies suggest detrimental effects—on cognitive test performance, for instance.
Re: Effects of caffeine and withdrawal
Taking a day off tea today and the caffeine withdrawal is real. Sleeping on and off through the day and now I have a headache. I drink about 25g a day nowadays. I should really cut down to one morning session or set a time limit of 3pm or so for tea consumption as it's definitely been keeping me up late.
EDIT: Drinking dahongpao to try and alleviate the headache I have. It doesn't seem to be helping...I don't get headaches and this is a bad one.
EDIT: Drinking dahongpao to try and alleviate the headache I have. It doesn't seem to be helping...I don't get headaches and this is a bad one.
Re: Effects of caffeine and withdrawal
Caffeine does a few things in your body. It essentially trips your fight or flight response so your body is under prolonged periods of stress.
Caffeine blocks adenosine receptors in your brain. The result is more unregulated electrical activity than normal. Your hypothalamus picks up on this as the brain perceiving a threat. A cascade of hormonal reactions occurs and you end up with a lot of adrenaline running through your body. Blood flow gets diverted from your core and digestive tract and extremities so that you can fight or run. Your senses are heightened as well so that you can detect and get away from threats.
Meanwhile, your blood vessels dilate. That's not a bad thing unless your body becomes dependent on the caffeine to maintain healthy blood flow. At that point, if you stop, your body needs time to readjust and allow for proper blood flow because your blood vessels constrict in caffeine's absence. That's why you get headaches as part of the withdrawal.
Being under that kind of pressure constantly isn't good for your body.
If you're at the point where your sleep is disturbed, your body isn't recovering how it should and you could be on your way to adrenal fatigue.
If you can sleep just fine and you don't suffer from anxiety your caffeine intake is likely not an issue.
Caffeine blocks adenosine receptors in your brain. The result is more unregulated electrical activity than normal. Your hypothalamus picks up on this as the brain perceiving a threat. A cascade of hormonal reactions occurs and you end up with a lot of adrenaline running through your body. Blood flow gets diverted from your core and digestive tract and extremities so that you can fight or run. Your senses are heightened as well so that you can detect and get away from threats.
Meanwhile, your blood vessels dilate. That's not a bad thing unless your body becomes dependent on the caffeine to maintain healthy blood flow. At that point, if you stop, your body needs time to readjust and allow for proper blood flow because your blood vessels constrict in caffeine's absence. That's why you get headaches as part of the withdrawal.
Being under that kind of pressure constantly isn't good for your body.
If you're at the point where your sleep is disturbed, your body isn't recovering how it should and you could be on your way to adrenal fatigue.
If you can sleep just fine and you don't suffer from anxiety your caffeine intake is likely not an issue.
Re: Effects of caffeine and withdrawal
I no longer drink tea at night and only have one session a day; less anxiety issues and I sleep much better now. I am caffeine sensitive, however, so others may not need to limit themselves to one tea a day as I do.LooseLeafTeaMarket01 wrote: Caffeine does a few things in your body. It essentially trips your fight or flight response so your body is under prolonged periods of stress.
Caffeine blocks adenosine receptors in your brain. The result is more unregulated electrical activity than normal. Your hypothalamus picks up on this as the brain perceiving a threat. A cascade of hormonal reactions occurs and you end up with a lot of adrenaline running through your body. Blood flow gets diverted from your core and digestive tract and extremities so that you can fight or run. Your senses are heightened as well so that you can detect and get away from threats.
Meanwhile, your blood vessels dilate. That's not a bad thing unless your body becomes dependent on the caffeine to maintain healthy blood flow. At that point, if you stop, your body needs time to readjust and allow for proper blood flow because your blood vessels constrict in caffeine's absence. That's why you get headaches as part of the withdrawal.
Being under that kind of pressure constantly isn't good for your body.
If you're at the point where your sleep is disturbed, your body isn't recovering how it should and you could be on your way to adrenal fatigue.
If you can sleep just fine and you don't suffer from anxiety your caffeine intake is likely not an issue.
Re: Effects of caffeine and withdrawal
Hey Jay, true. Then again, if you drink herbal tisanes, you have no caffeine issues to worry about and you get tons of health benefits!jayinhk wrote:I no longer drink tea at night and only have one session a day; less anxiety issues and I sleep much better now. I am caffeine sensitive, however, so others may not need to limit themselves to one tea a day as I do.LooseLeafTeaMarket01 wrote: Caffeine does a few things in your body. It essentially trips your fight or flight response so your body is under prolonged periods of stress.
Caffeine blocks adenosine receptors in your brain. The result is more unregulated electrical activity than normal. Your hypothalamus picks up on this as the brain perceiving a threat. A cascade of hormonal reactions occurs and you end up with a lot of adrenaline running through your body. Blood flow gets diverted from your core and digestive tract and extremities so that you can fight or run. Your senses are heightened as well so that you can detect and get away from threats.
Meanwhile, your blood vessels dilate. That's not a bad thing unless your body becomes dependent on the caffeine to maintain healthy blood flow. At that point, if you stop, your body needs time to readjust and allow for proper blood flow because your blood vessels constrict in caffeine's absence. That's why you get headaches as part of the withdrawal.
Being under that kind of pressure constantly isn't good for your body.
If you're at the point where your sleep is disturbed, your body isn't recovering how it should and you could be on your way to adrenal fatigue.
If you can sleep just fine and you don't suffer from anxiety your caffeine intake is likely not an issue.
What do you do man? You are a vendor member? What does that mean? Do you have a tea business?
Re: Effects of caffeine and withdrawal
Herbal tisanes aren't quite as pleasurable (to me) as teas are! I did enjoy drinking barley tea in Japan though. I am indeed a vendor; started an official business last May and it's picking up! You can check out my site at http://www.tealife.hk / http://www.tealifehk.comLooseLeafTeaMarket01 wrote:Hey Jay, true. Then again, if you drink herbal tisanes, you have no caffeine issues to worry about and you get tons of health benefits!jayinhk wrote:I no longer drink tea at night and only have one session a day; less anxiety issues and I sleep much better now. I am caffeine sensitive, however, so others may not need to limit themselves to one tea a day as I do.LooseLeafTeaMarket01 wrote: Caffeine does a few things in your body. It essentially trips your fight or flight response so your body is under prolonged periods of stress.
Caffeine blocks adenosine receptors in your brain. The result is more unregulated electrical activity than normal. Your hypothalamus picks up on this as the brain perceiving a threat. A cascade of hormonal reactions occurs and you end up with a lot of adrenaline running through your body. Blood flow gets diverted from your core and digestive tract and extremities so that you can fight or run. Your senses are heightened as well so that you can detect and get away from threats.
Meanwhile, your blood vessels dilate. That's not a bad thing unless your body becomes dependent on the caffeine to maintain healthy blood flow. At that point, if you stop, your body needs time to readjust and allow for proper blood flow because your blood vessels constrict in caffeine's absence. That's why you get headaches as part of the withdrawal.
Being under that kind of pressure constantly isn't good for your body.
If you're at the point where your sleep is disturbed, your body isn't recovering how it should and you could be on your way to adrenal fatigue.
If you can sleep just fine and you don't suffer from anxiety your caffeine intake is likely not an issue.
What do you do man? You are a vendor member? What does that mean? Do you have a tea business?
I take it you're in the tea biz yourself?
Re: Effects of caffeine and withdrawal
"Better to go 3 days without food than 1 day without tea." - Chinese proverb
I consume 20g a day or so.
I would definitely get a headache if I skipped a day, but this doesn't concern me too much.
I usually keep a couple bottles of caffeine tablets and plenty of tylenol around, so in the event of a natural disaster I could just wean myself off.
I don't get sleeplessness, but I hadn't heard that caffeine could disrupt REM sleep even without causing sleeplessness, I'll have to look into that.
Most anything we put in our bodies will have both costs and benefits of course. Most of the research I've seen on caffeine and coffee or tea intake notes the neutral or benign effects (improved results on IQ tests, reduced risk of Parkinson's, and myriad non-caffiene correlations between tea consumption and improved health), but I do take all that with a grain of salt, as the coffee and tea industries no doubt have some influence over what gets studied and covered in the lay press.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
I consume 20g a day or so.
I would definitely get a headache if I skipped a day, but this doesn't concern me too much.
I usually keep a couple bottles of caffeine tablets and plenty of tylenol around, so in the event of a natural disaster I could just wean myself off.
I don't get sleeplessness, but I hadn't heard that caffeine could disrupt REM sleep even without causing sleeplessness, I'll have to look into that.
Most anything we put in our bodies will have both costs and benefits of course. Most of the research I've seen on caffeine and coffee or tea intake notes the neutral or benign effects (improved results on IQ tests, reduced risk of Parkinson's, and myriad non-caffiene correlations between tea consumption and improved health), but I do take all that with a grain of salt, as the coffee and tea industries no doubt have some influence over what gets studied and covered in the lay press.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Re: Effects of caffeine and withdrawal
I had been drinking several cups of coffee and a few cups of tea daily and was suffering from some severe anxiety throughout the day and exhaustion in the morning. It's been a week now since I've limited myself to under 400 mg daily, with nothing caffeinated after 2-4 PM. I've noticed a huge reduction in anxiety, and I'm waking up in the morning a lot less fatigued than usual. I'm now just drinking about two cups of coffee in the morning and then 2-3 cups of green tea until 4 PM, at the latest.
It's only been a week, so take that into consideration, but if anyone else is getting a similar response to caffeine, it might be worth a try to see if you're just taking too much.
Caffeine is a drug, albeit a legal one.
It's only been a week, so take that into consideration, but if anyone else is getting a similar response to caffeine, it might be worth a try to see if you're just taking too much.
Caffeine is a drug, albeit a legal one.