Feb 26th, '16, 11:46
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Re: Antique porcelain teapots

by Hmm » Feb 26th, '16, 11:46

Bok wrote:
Hmm wrote:
Can you try posting them on e.g. http://discussion.chinese-antique-porce ... ?board=1.0 I wondering what other people's opinions are. Thanks.
Posted and got some replies already. Current guess is:
– Yellow jar, probably Japanese (makes sense, seen Taiwans history)
– Red cups Ming-Qing
– Blue cups Ming-Qing or Japanese
– Black cup 20th century
If they were from the transitionary period, I know close to nothing about the patterns around that period, and have looked at stuff mainly from the mid-Qing and upwards. But yes, I have learned after some research that unglazed bottoms were common around that time. But also that glazed bottoms started to become pretty popular by the Ming dynasty. I guess that fact could help a little in dating.

When you say cheap. How cheap are we exactly talking about? Next time a relative or someone I know is in Taiwan, perhaps I will tell them to go by and find some stuff for me.

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Feb 26th, '16, 12:51
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Re: Antique porcelain teapots

by nada » Feb 26th, '16, 12:51

Bok,

I've handled quite a few Ming bird and dragon cups & own quite a few too.

I've never come across bases quite like that. The fact that the clay seems to be the same in all 3 raises a few questions too.

I'm not saying they're fake... but here are a few ming cup bases for reference

full size here...
https://www.essenceoftea.com/blog/wp-co ... G_0452.jpg

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Feb 26th, '16, 12:54
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Re: Antique porcelain teapots

by nada » Feb 26th, '16, 12:54

...also the style of painting doesn't look quite right. I'm not an expert though.

My advice would be to go slowly & don't spend too much money.

Genuine pieces don't come cheap, especially in perfect condition. People who sell them, especially in asia, know how much they're worth. That's their business!

Feb 26th, '16, 15:37
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Re: Antique porcelain teapots

by Hmm » Feb 26th, '16, 15:37

nada wrote:...also the style of painting doesn't look quite right. I'm not an expert though.

My advice would be to go slowly & don't spend too much money.

Genuine pieces don't come cheap, especially in perfect condition. People who sell them, especially in asia, know how much they're worth. That's their business!
They always say when interested in collecting, to look, look, and look some more at as many pieces as you can and handle as many pieces as you can. But rarely buy anything. Going to museums actually does help a bit in understanding what are correct colors for glazes, bases, and overall shapes. Also going to auctions allows you to handle some pieces or look at what other expert opinions are without necessarily buying anything. Getting a good reference book is also good as well.

The bases though look a bit too clean right compared to ones Essence is selling right? I mean, there's no slight redness from iron leaching, etc. Perhaps the lighting is off.

Do you have any photos of your Ming cups?

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Feb 26th, '16, 17:58
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Re: Antique porcelain teapots

by nada » Feb 26th, '16, 17:58

Hmm wrote: The bases though look a bit too clean right compared to ones Essence is selling right?
btw... my ones not for sale - just personal collection & photo for educational purposes. I uploaded the photo above to my server just for somewhere to host it.

Feb 27th, '16, 03:05
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Re: Antique porcelain teapots

by Bok » Feb 27th, '16, 03:05

Hmm wrote: When you say cheap. How cheap are we exactly talking about? Next time a relative or someone I know is in Taiwan, perhaps I will tell them to go by and find some stuff for me.
Around 200 NTD per cup.
I mainly bought the cups because I liked them and for that price I think it is ok, even if they are not what they pretend to be.

Not too much tuition fee :lol:

Feb 27th, '16, 03:13
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Re: Antique porcelain teapots

by Bok » Feb 27th, '16, 03:13

nada wrote:
I've handled quite a few Ming bird and dragon cups & own quite a few too.

I've never come across bases quite like that. The fact that the clay seems to be the same in all 3 raises a few questions too.

I'm not saying they're fake... but here are a few ming cup bases for reference

full size here...
https://www.essenceoftea.com/blog/wp-co ... G_0452.jpg
Thanks for your feedback, much appreciated! I am still a rookie in what concerns antique porcelain...
I did not spend too much on them, still wary enough, not to go to far.

The red ones feet are less uniform. I had posted those on a Chinese Antiques forum, were they told me the drawings look like Ming-Qing transition period.

The blue ones look to clean, which I did not realise at the time I bought them. :oops:

I will keep my eyes open in the future and study more!

Went there again and noticed a few things on some seemingly old cups
- Oily looking spots on blue glazing
- Some sort of red dust on the feet of unglazed cups

Anyone knows if that could be signs of forgery?

Feb 27th, '16, 03:15
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Re: Antique porcelain teapots

by Bok » Feb 27th, '16, 03:15

So what would be a reasonable price for a genuine Qing dynasty cup?
Let us assume, commoner quality.

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Feb 27th, '16, 05:15
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Re: Antique porcelain teapots

by jayinhk » Feb 27th, '16, 05:15

They are making truckloads of these items in China--entire malls full of fake antiques for the market. Chinese capitalism at its best!

Feb 27th, '16, 09:25
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Re: Antique porcelain teapots

by Bok » Feb 27th, '16, 09:25

jayinhk wrote:They are making truckloads of these items in China--entire malls full of fake antiques for the market. Chinese capitalism at its best!
I get that in the case of valuable items, but in this case it does not make much sense to me to go for all that hassle for small cups, which in the end are not sold at terribly high prices!

Feb 27th, '16, 11:01
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Re: Antique porcelain teapots

by Hmm » Feb 27th, '16, 11:01

Bok wrote:
jayinhk wrote:They are making truckloads of these items in China--entire malls full of fake antiques for the market. Chinese capitalism at its best!
I get that in the case of valuable items, but in this case it does not make much sense to me to go for all that hassle for small cups, which in the end are not sold at terribly high prices!
It's somewhat like how I thought that Nanjing willow style export plates wouldn't be reproduced because it's not a common traditional domestic Chinese pattern and was made for export during the 19th century. Then I was walking around Chinatown one day and saw hundreds of plates using that pattern haha. I can't remember though if it was printed or not though, but I was pretty amazed to see they were still making it. Canton famille rose stuff was still being made at least into the 60s-80s even in HK.

Although I didn't find your particular pattern, the Taobao link I showed you definitely shows there's imitation antique wares still being made of tea cups, although on second look, they are probably mostly printed stuff, at least yours were handpainted. I guess the first thing I would do is check on ebay if they are selling hundreds of them. If so, likely a fake. Perhaps try bidding on e.g. this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Asian-Chinese-O ... SwezVWzlNm

or

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ancient-Chinese ... Sw~OVWydiz

http://www.ebay.com/itm/IMITATION-MING- ... Sw8-tWUnF2

and compare and contrast it with yours. Although the crane one looks like it may be printed. Nonetheless you may be able get it for a couple bucks with free shipping. Sometimes purposely getting fake pieces is a good learning tool to understand what imitators are currently doing.

A lot of minyao pieces from that period would have the owner's name stenciled on it, e.g. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Chinese ... SwaA5WirI8

Obviously that could be faked too.

But you are right there should be a lot of minyao items out there in the world, so the prices shouldn't be that high since they don't hold as much collector's value. It's like 100 years from now finding Ikea plates should be fairly easy and common to find.

Feb 27th, '16, 12:41
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Re: Antique porcelain teapots

by thirst » Feb 27th, '16, 12:41

Maybe it’s just that some people enjoy the style? E.g. there’s a german store that sells “antique style” cups that look vaguely similar: http://www.diekunstdestees.de/epages/63 ... =30&Page=2
Though at least you’re told that they’re imitation cups.

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Feb 27th, '16, 19:04
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Re: Antique porcelain teapots

by jayinhk » Feb 27th, '16, 19:04

If they do turn out to be fake, that's the placebo effect proven all over again! :) I remember when a friend of mine ordered Johnny Walker Blue Label at a restaurant here in HK and relished every drop. When we got the check at the end, we realized he'd been served Black Label and charged accordingly!

Feb 27th, '16, 19:29
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Re: Antique porcelain teapots

by Hmm » Feb 27th, '16, 19:29

I just noticed a lot of the "vintage" cups here (http://www.chawangshop.com/index.php/te ... -cups.html) are similar to what Bok has.

E.g. http://www.chawangshop.com/index.php/te ... two-c.html

Maybe it's a particular style of how they did things in the south.

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Apr 15th, '17, 12:43
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Re: Antique porcelain teapots

by williammimi70 » Apr 15th, '17, 12:43

Bok wrote: Thanks!

And finally to make illustrate the discussion, I’ve taken a few quick and dirty (cell phone only) shots of the batch.

First to go are the red underglazed cups.
Looking at these images of the underglaze copper red cups and their bases I am quite confident that they are modern

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