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Mar 7th, '16, 08:10
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Re: Celadon vs. Porcelain

by JBaymore » Mar 7th, '16, 08:10

Since the original question was of the impact of the glaze on the TASTE of the tea, then "lip feel" and how that related to the "experience" of drinking is a separate issue.

Theoretically something like fused silica glass (pyrex) should not affect the contents.

And since all of the blind samples would be treated the same way, then that keeps any impact of cooling and added oxygen pretty constant.

best,

..............john

Mar 7th, '16, 08:21
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Re: Celadon vs. Porcelain

by steanze » Mar 7th, '16, 08:21

JBaymore wrote:Since the original question was of the impact of the glaze on the TASTE of the tea, then "lip feel" and how that related to the "experience" of drinking is a separate issue.
That's right. I think one could try to pour the contents in two different cups and from there into two pyrex cups. Temperature would be different because the two different cups may have different heat retention, but one could probably control for this to some extent.

Sometimes I wonder though to what extent we are able to separate our judgement of the "taste" of the tea from other feelings like lip feel. I usually find that tea seems smoother in thicker cups, and I suspect this may have to do with the fact that we can't perfectly carve different aspects of our experience separating "taste" and tactile sensations. Especially if we consider the texture (e.g. thickness and smoothness) of the tea to be part of taste.

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Mar 7th, '16, 10:00
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Re: Celadon vs. Porcelain

by Midwinter_Sun » Mar 7th, '16, 10:00

JBaymore wrote:Since the original question was of the impact of the glaze on the TASTE of the tea, then "lip feel" and how that related to the "experience" of drinking is a separate issue.
..............john
The original question does not define "taste" in detail.
Tea certainly tastes different at different temperatures, and different cups affect cooling and retention significantly.

I would presume that this effect is certainly more pronounced than any assumed "leaching" from the glaze.

Then there is the question of how the lip feel of the vessel affects the perception of "finer" and "rougher" notes of the tea being tasted.

Would an aficionado of wabi-sabi feel aesthetic joy when perusing an "imperfect" vessel to a larger extent than someone not sharing that aesthetic? I think so. Would it affect the notes they perceive in the tea? In my limited experience, yes.

We were recently drinking tea from rough, handformed chawan at a friend's gallery when her teenage daughter came in to say hi. When we offered her tea, she curtly clipped " How can you even drink from those broken jugs". So clearly the vessel affected her perception of the tea in an extreme way - she did not even want to taste it :mrgreen:

So in my humble opinion, very relevant points when discussing taste from different cups.

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Mar 7th, '16, 10:45
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Re: Celadon vs. Porcelain

by JBaymore » Mar 7th, '16, 10:45

William wrote:Generally speaking, celadon increase the aftertaste, BUT, depending on the amount of iron oxide present inside the glaze, the increase can be light or drastic. Most often, with heavy presence of iron oxide, the body of the tea can be felt somewhat more thin and subtle.
I do think this is about "taste", and the potential impact from material interactions with the tea on that taste.

No question that there are other aspects when it comes to the overall 'tea experience'. Very important ones in some contexts.

best,

........john

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Re: Celadon vs. Porcelain

by William » Mar 7th, '16, 12:27

Guys, the blind tests I did many times were like this. I brew the tea and pour it inside a glass pitcher, then pour it in two or more cups (usually 4 or 5). A second person enter, I momently exit, this second person pour the content of each cup inside a glass cup, all esthetically the same, same size, shape and so on (and of course takes note of which cup correspond to which glass cup, just by adding a small sign to the foot rim, that he recognize but not me).

Every time, I was able to recognize the celadon cup and (sometime) the iron glazed cup, with the first one being the most easy to be identified.

Regards.

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Mar 7th, '16, 13:44
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Re: Celadon vs. Porcelain

by Midwinter_Sun » Mar 7th, '16, 13:44

William wrote:
Every time, I was able to recognize the celadon cup and (sometime) the iron glazed cup, with the first one being the most easy to be identified.

Regards.
Very proper done, William!

I forgot to add the factor of accumulated tea patina to the equation.

I shall attempt to replicate your methodology.

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Re: Celadon vs. Porcelain

by steanze » Mar 7th, '16, 16:17

William wrote:Guys, the blind tests I did many times were like this. I brew the tea and pour it inside a glass pitcher, then pour it in two or more cups (usually 4 or 5). A second person enter, I momently exit, this second person pour the content of each cup inside a glass cup, all esthetically the same, same size, shape and so on (and of course takes note of which cup correspond to which glass cup, just by adding a small sign to the foot rim, that he recognize but not me).

Every time, I was able to recognize the celadon cup and (sometime) the iron glazed cup, with the first one being the most easy to be identified.

Regards.
Thanks for the additional methods details. It sounds quite well controlled. The next question is whether this generalizes to all celadon or to what types of celadon and to cups of what ages.

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Mar 7th, '16, 16:29
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Re: Celadon vs. Porcelain

by William » Mar 7th, '16, 16:29

Midwinter_Sun wrote: I shall attempt to replicate your methodology.
What you need is just a tea mate! I would help you but we're definite distant! :mrgreen:
steanze wrote: Thanks for the additional methods details. It sounds quite well controlled. The next question is whether this generalizes to all celadon or to what types of celadon and to cups of what ages.
This is a good question! Different celadon gave similar (but not identical) results; e.g. some increased drastically the aftertaste while reducing body, other increase to a lesser extent the aftertaste without decreasing the body, while others decreased the body and the aftertaste (in fact I stopped to use the ones within this category).

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Mar 7th, '16, 17:40
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Re: Celadon vs. Porcelain

by Midwinter_Sun » Mar 7th, '16, 17:40

William wrote:
What you need is just a tea mate! I would help you but we're definite distant! :mrgreen:
I am rather far away from any other gongfu tea enthusiasts, I do have a friend that we share matcha with, her pesky teen daughter can't get in our way! :mrgreen:

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