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Burnt Duan Ni

by Jaymo » Oct 5th 14 5:08 pm

I've seen a few references to "burnt" duan ni on a couple Yixing-related threads here and there, but aside from the description of this pot on YS, very little information about what this might be.

Is it an actual thing, or just a gimmick? Isn't Duan Ni usually fired a little higher than a lot of other clays anyway? (I tried searching awhile of the forums, but the information about various yixing-related clay types is so spread around that I didn't come up with much, so thanks in advance!)

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Re: Burnt Duan Ni

by Tead Off » Oct 5th 14 5:51 pm

Not really familiar with this. I doubt the vendor would be making up the description of the clay and its firing. The first thing I ask myself is 'is it attractive'? Not to me.

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Re: Burnt Duan Ni

by Jaymo » Oct 5th 14 6:08 pm

I agree. I don't find the pot I linked on YS particularly attractive either. It was just one of the only examples I could find while posting my question. I still can't help but be curious about it though!

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Re: Burnt Duan Ni

by steanze » Oct 5th 14 6:28 pm

I've seen some times pots fired at a much higher temperature than usual (even higher than the usual for duan ni), and I heard people say that they lose the typical porosity of Yixing clay. However, I never really used one myself. Hopefully some more experience members of the forum can chime in :)

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Re: Burnt Duan Ni

by mganz42 » Oct 6th 14 12:26 pm

I have a burnt duan ni pot from yunnansourcing. I've definitely seen this type of clay in places other than yunnansourcing, I can't say it's a super high-quality clay but it's not something they made up. I've been using it for traditional TGY, it rounds out the roast a lot without reducing most of the other flavors. I'd say it's a lot better than porcelain but not as good as, say, the qing shui ni I got from Origin.

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Re: Burnt Duan Ni

by chrl42 » Oct 7th 14 8:24 am

From what I know, the dragon kiln is operated once a year. And they make Yaobian pots similar to the link..

The pictures on the link is too small to comment anything. There are Yaobian pots, and there are wood-fired pots, and are wood-fired pots in the dragon kiln, these are all different things and there also is what includes all of the former ones.

To make a Yaobian pot requires skills, there are Yaobian specialists using their own designed kilns...the temperature of firing is usually very high as 12~1300cc, to endure that temperature, the potters have to mix sand-rich clays....these pots have very pretty colors and high ringing sounds.

But you cannot operate that 'skill' for the dragon kiln, so should be kinda mono tone to these pots are.

Wood-fired pots also have special traits to it, none-dragon wood-fired pots usually have black dots on the surface.


Quick scanning somewhat looks like a wood-fired pot using special mixed Duanni..whether it's from the dragon kiln or not....I cannot confirm. :)

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Re: Burnt Duan Ni

by Drax » Oct 7th 14 4:51 pm

I bought one of these pots years ago for use at work, and I usually brew my greener oolongs in it. I wanted to get a pot that was big enough for larger steeps, and also one that was visually striking. It certainly fits the bill.

The thing I like most visually about the teapot is that the speckled quality is uniform throughout. I don't think it's yaobian, but rather an even mixture of different clays. Just my guess, though. When I get back from my trip, maybe I can post a closer picture, if somebody reminds me.

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Re: Burnt Duan Ni

by Drax » Oct 7th 14 4:53 pm

Oh, and yes, I just assumed the name and such were gimmicks... :D

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Re: Burnt Duan Ni

by kyarazen » Oct 13th 14 2:39 am

Jaymo wrote:I've seen a few references to "burnt" duan ni on a couple Yixing-related threads here and there, but aside from the description of this pot on YS, very little information about what this might be.

Is it an actual thing, or just a gimmick? Isn't Duan Ni usually fired a little higher than a lot of other clays anyway? (I tried searching awhile of the forums, but the information about various yixing-related clay types is so spread around that I didn't come up with much, so thanks in advance!)
from my observations it is something of a recent development (i.e. under a decade). its called "gao wen duan ni", literally translated as high temperature duan ni.

the material is not like the classical ROC to Early F1 duan-ni, which when medium fired, looks pale, optimally fired, turns a rich yellow, slightly over fired, takes on a orangey hue.

this version of duan-ni when over fired the color intensifies and the speckles appear.
Image
left to right, highly over fired, overfired, reduction fired and regular firing colors.

it is said to be done to achieve several aims
1) there are "artisan" versions of this, they instead subject the pot to a series of oxidation and reduction firings to mimic the old duan ni look
2) the commercial version is overfired to reduce problems of "吐黑" or "vomitting black", when this type of duan ni, even when close to normal firing, can develop black/dark specks all over after some usage.

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Re: Burnt Duan Ni

by Jaymo » Oct 13th 14 3:02 am

kyarazen wrote:
Jaymo wrote:I've seen a few references to "burnt" duan ni on a couple Yixing-related threads here and there, but aside from the description of this pot on YS, very little information about what this might be.

Is it an actual thing, or just a gimmick? Isn't Duan Ni usually fired a little higher than a lot of other clays anyway? (I tried searching awhile of the forums, but the information about various yixing-related clay types is so spread around that I didn't come up with much, so thanks in advance!)
from my observations it is something of a recent development (i.e. under a decade). its called "gao wen duan ni", literally translated as high temperature duan ni.

the material is not like the classical ROC to Early F1 duan-ni, which when medium fired, looks pale, optimally fired, turns a rich yellow, slightly over fired, takes on a orangey hue.

this version of duan-ni when over fired the color intensifies and the speckles appear.
Image
left to right, highly over fired, overfired, reduction fired and regular firing colors.

it is said to be done to achieve several aims
1) there are "artisan" versions of this, they instead subject the pot to a series of oxidation and reduction firings to mimic the old duan ni look
2) the commercial version is overfired to reduce problems of "吐黑" or "vomitting black", when this type of duan ni, even when close to normal firing, can develop black/dark specks all over after some usage.
Thanks for the information and photo for reference! Being a recent development is probably why I haven't seen as much mention of it.

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Re: Burnt Duan Ni

by CosmicGate » Feb 22nd 18 10:12 am

concidering this:

https://yunnansourcing.com/products/hig ... 5656327942


however trying to do some research and i can find almost no information on this "burning" process which lead me to this thread...

would apreciate any experience or info any of you might have regarding this !

is it possible that the clay got "ruined" by the over firing ? is it only for aesthetical reasons that detrement the usage ? or do you think it might have some special attributes from such "burning" ?

Thanks !

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Re: Burnt Duan Ni

by CheekyChipmunk » Feb 23rd 18 1:49 am

CosmicGate wrote: concidering this:

https://yunnansourcing.com/products/hig ... 5656327942


however trying to do some research and i can find almost no information on this "burning" process which lead me to this thread...

would apreciate any experience or info any of you might have regarding this !

is it possible that the clay got "ruined" by the over firing ? is it only for aesthetical reasons that detrement the usage ? or do you think it might have some special attributes from such "burning" ?

Thanks !
I can’t tell you much about the firing process of the YS high-fired duanni you link. However, I do own one of these pots. I don’t use it much as it’s my black tea pot and I drink mostly puerh. However I can tell you that this process leads to a VERY porous clay, you can actually see and feel small holes in the clay that result from this type of firing process. I would say that this doesn’t give the clay any ‘special’ properties, these type of clay pots have been made and their processes refined for centuries, there isn’t much that is unknown at this stage. However if you like the pot aesthetically then go for it! I’d say this clay doesn’t negatively affect the tea from what I can tell. What tea are you planning to use it for?

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Re: Burnt Duan Ni

by Zared » Feb 23rd 18 5:46 am

CheekyChipmunk wrote:
CosmicGate wrote: concidering this:

https://yunnansourcing.com/products/hig ... 5656327942


however trying to do some research and i can find almost no information on this "burning" process which lead me to this thread...

would apreciate any experience or info any of you might have regarding this !

is it possible that the clay got "ruined" by the over firing ? is it only for aesthetical reasons that detrement the usage ? or do you think it might have some special attributes from such "burning" ?

Thanks !
I can’t tell you much about the firing process of the YS high-fired duanni you link. However, I do own one of these pots. I don’t use it much as it’s my black tea pot and I drink mostly puerh. However I can tell you that this process leads to a VERY porous clay, you can actually see and feel small holes in the clay that result from this type of firing process. I would say that this doesn’t give the clay any ‘special’ properties, these type of clay pots have been made and their processes refined for centuries, there isn’t much that is unknown at this stage. However if you like the pot aesthetically then go for it! I’d say this clay doesn’t negatively affect the tea from what I can tell. What tea are you planning to use it for?
More porous from over firing? Everything I've read about over fired pot indicates that they should be less porous than normal firing. Any idea why this esthetic firing technique would make it more porous? Also are these visible holes on the inside?

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Re: Burnt Duan Ni

by CosmicGate » Feb 23rd 18 8:36 am

CheekyChipmunk wrote:
CosmicGate wrote: concidering this:

https://yunnansourcing.com/products/hig ... 5656327942


however trying to do some research and i can find almost no information on this "burning" process which lead me to this thread...

would apreciate any experience or info any of you might have regarding this !

is it possible that the clay got "ruined" by the over firing ? is it only for aesthetical reasons that detrement the usage ? or do you think it might have some special attributes from such "burning" ?

Thanks !
I can’t tell you much about the firing process of the YS high-fired duanni you link. However, I do own one of these pots. I don’t use it much as it’s my black tea pot and I drink mostly puerh. However I can tell you that this process leads to a VERY porous clay, you can actually see and feel small holes in the clay that result from this type of firing process. I would say that this doesn’t give the clay any ‘special’ properties, these type of clay pots have been made and their processes refined for centuries, there isn’t much that is unknown at this stage. However if you like the pot aesthetically then go for it! I’d say this clay doesn’t negatively affect the tea from what I can tell. What tea are you planning to use it for?
Thank you!
yes i love it so i went ahead and followed my heart and bought it !

it looks from the photo as if the high firing "melted" the iron in it into these black specks ?
it feels as if it could be "half" iron "half" clay kind of structure to it... but of course i don't know what i am talking about just observation..


i am not sure yetwhich tea to dedicate it to... concidering oolongs, but also concidering another "da hong pao" teapot form YS for oolongs so i might end up using it for ripe puerh..

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Re: Burnt Duan Ni

by CheekyChipmunk » Feb 23rd 18 5:13 pm

Zared wrote: More porous from over firing? Everything I've read about over fired pot indicates that they should be less porous than normal firing. Any idea why this esthetic firing technique would make it more porous? Also are these visible holes on the inside?
Yes perhaps I should be more specific in what I mean. These holes cover the entire surface of the pot both inside and out. If I had to guess I’d say they might be the result of tiny air bubbles near the clay surface exploding, similar to how zhuni or other clays can sometimes have little divets from air expanding in the kiln. However on this pot the holes are frequent and even over the entire surface, leading to a very coarse texture. I’m not sure if these holes ‘suck in’ the liquid due to an increased surface area in contact with the liquid but it appears to really soak up boiling water very fast when cleaning out compared to say zini. Does this clarify things at all? As for its effect on tea, I’d say it really rounds out the body, maybe at the expense of clarity? I would take this with a grain of salt though, as again I haven’t used it much and I use it with black teas, which I rarely reach for...

Hope this helps!