Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

[bagua7]

Purchased here, right?

http://www.chinazsh.com/uploading/pic.php?iInfoID=265



Zi ni clay.

[TIM]

Purchased here, right?

http://www.chinazsh.com/uploading/pic.php?iInfoID=265



Zi ni clay.

Yo kidding Would you?

[bagua7]

.

[Tead Off]

Why 80's?

[TIM]

You are not kidding... You really have no idea.
Why in the yixing section? If you can't even tell if it's a yixing or not? So random

[brandon]

Wheel-thrown by Wolverine?

[TIM]

Wheel-thrown by Wolverine?

Wolverine certainly had a soft spot.

[brandon]

Wheel-thrown by Wolverine?

Wolverine certainly had a soft spot.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/ar ... -York.html

You are not kidding.

[wh&yel-apprentice]

http://www.polypm.com.cn/english/pmwp71 ... rt70733461

^Dec 2010 Auction in Bejing> that simple design Zhu Kexin pot went for ~$4,500 USD...though if you look at the others by the master, they mostly sold for $50,000 or more.

Of not real interest to me as I can't even afford the fakes . Kind of like you used to be able to buy 1st Growth 1982 Bordeaux in the mid-1980's for mostly <$200, if I had been a tea afficianado back then, I might have bought a master teapot for same amount . But then with the value they are now, I'd never use it...and for me, what's the point of having a teapot if you don't use it?

http://www.polypm.com.cn/english/pmwp71 ... rt70733351
^Lotus & Frog, by; similar to the one Toki is showing on his blog---but being less ornate and blue in color, is Toki's worth the same or less...it's all priceless and of no concern to me :p ?:
http://themandarinstea.blogspot.com/201 ... -with.html

Estimate： RMB 150,000-200,000
Price： RMB 313,600

< ~$50k USD

So, if Jiang R. made copies of old master works for an antique shop in her early career, as did other 'master' potters...is she a counterfeiter/forgery artist (was her chop on these copies?)?

http://terebess.hu/english/yixing1a.html

Scenario Two

A unique situation took place in the 1920s to 1930s. During this period in Shanghai, a group of Yixing dealers grouped together and planned to produce copies of master works. With their ample knowledge about Yixing teapots and financial backings, they are able to organize the production of copies on a large scale and manipulated the mass media to their advantage. A large number of renown potters of that period, including Gu Jing Zhou, Wang Yan Chun, Zhu Ke Xin, Wu Yun Gen etc. were employed to produce copies of pass masters' works. Based on original pieces, the pots that were produced were either direct copies or self creations. These new creations bore the seals of past masters and were later publicized to be actual works of pass masters. These employed potters were offered better terms to encourage them to produce top quality works and as a result the copies produced were excellent pieces of works, though there are fakes.

Scenario Three

In the late 80s, the increase awareness and appreciation level of tea and teapots in Taiwan brought about the increase in demand for Yixing teapots. As a result, groups of undergound potters numbering 2 to 3 in each group appeared in Yixing, making copies or fake pots. They copies strictly for monetary gain and have sales outlets in and around Tingshu County, Suzhou and WuXi. There are all sorts of copies such as:

the unskilled copying the skilled potters' works

students copying the works of their masters, including the seals

potters producing substandard copies of their works

In order to maximize their gains, these potters produce substandard copies of pass masters' works and sell them at a much lower price to attract those who are not well versed in Yixing teapots. They copied everything, regardless of whether it is an old or new designs. Some even uses computer scans of masters' seal which makes authenication more difficult, while others uses timber seal chops to date teapots. Others specialised in creating old teapots by using a proven set of procedure. These people have done more harm to the entire industry than they can imagine. So successful is their venture that almost 80% to 90% of the pots you see in any teapot shops belong to this cateogory. Many collectors cannot progress in knowledge because all their life, they are only able to come into contacts with fake pots!

http://www.polypm.com.cn/english/result ... =PZ2003834

http://www.polypm.com.cn/english/pmwp71 ... rt70733480
^sold : $567,643...but it's like it's brand new, stored in a temperature/humidty/light controlled environment...could it be a fake?

Same thing for the old dynasty master works, $560+k @Bonham's HK auction this past year:
http://www.bonhams.com/asi/auction/19621/

http://www.bonhams.com/asi/auction/19621/lot/502/

^looks new to me

Qing dynasty, signed Chen Mingyuan...Sold for HK$4,340,000 inclusive of Buyer's Premium

Footnote:
清 陳鳴遠款紫泥方壺

「陳鳴遠」、「壺隱」陽文方印
「令我胸中書傳香，鳴遠鈐。」行書銘文

Illustrated 出版:
Ho Chien, Purple Clay. Wellington Wang's Collection of Yixing Wares, Taipei, 1993, p.46-47.
何建，《紫泥 王度宜陶珍藏册》，奇园国际艺术中心，台北，1993，頁46-47。

^Could this still be a pot made by modern master rather than the great Chen Mingyuan, could have been just talented Factory 1 Craftsman??? Like the one made by student of Jiang Jianxiang on Toki's blog:
http://themandarinstea.blogspot.com/200 ... -pots.html

http://terebess.hu says yes, they could be fakes,

http://www.teapot-collection.com/introduction-clay.html
^they say no , since they are selling them:

- Forgery is impossible. The remark of potter for these teapots inherits the style of teapots made during Culture Revolution period. That is------- the name of potter is only shown inside the lid of the teapot with little wooden stamp, and the bottom is only marked with "Yixin China". Although the remark is simple, yet with the other four features listed above, forgery to these teapots is extremely difficult and is very easily identified...

In a word, this batch of teapots made during 1980-1984 is teapot with the best material, the elegant shapes, the refined artistry, the nice forms and the fine functionality. As a result, they would become more and more precious in the future and become the treasure of the collectors.

I wouldn't mind having an elegantly simple design like this one, made by the master Gu Ting, when only at lowest level craftsman back in the 1990's:
http://www.yeyoungtea.com/zisha-teapot.php

But then, it's worth what now? I'd worry too much about breaking it, and probably never use it

[bagua7]

Personally you have to be suicidal if you decide to spend 50 grand on a pot ( and really not that much, anything past the 2 grand mark) that is not 100% genuine...only a radiocarbon dating test would be able to discern between the real and the fake. However such procedure is very expensive and not always convenient. Also, how many labs have the facility to carry them out?

Best is to stay away from this sort of stuff.

Btw, in relation to the pots sold at the Beijing auctions, are they 100% genuine? Are they all tested via the protocol I mentioned and thoroughly examined by a team qualified experts specialised in Chinese Ceramics prior being put on action?

Why 80's?

It was just a wild guess. Maybe you know better.

[debunix]

How would a radiocarbon date work on a teapot?

Radiocarbon dating, looking at C14 content, works on formerly living things (bones, wood, charcoal, hides, etc) that stop absorbing C14 after death, so the amount of C14 left is a reliable indicator of how much time has elapsed since the animal/plant/fungus died.

[Tead Off]

How would a radiocarbon date work on a teapot?

Radiocarbon dating, looking at C14 content, works on formerly living things (bones, wood, charcoal, hides, etc) that stop absorbing C14 after death, so the amount of C14 left is a reliable indicator of how much time has elapsed since the animal/plant/fungus died.

Thermoluminescence is used for fired clay to determine dating, not c-14. It measures the last time the clay was fired. The problem with both tests is the relatively new age of the teapots. Items must be over a certain age in order to test them. This is a game for people who have money to burn. The only proof of identity is someone saying it is such. Hopefully that someone is the artist. If the artist is dead, all bets are off.

[tingjunkie]

So here's the purpose of this thread...

Instead of asking questions which may not have any ultimate answer, let's post info and photos about some of our favorite pots in the hopes of learning what works well for other members. In this way, perhaps we can answer some questions before they are even asked.

So, along with a photo of a pot you own, please post the following info:
- Clay type (zhu ni, hong ni, zi ni, duan ni, zisha, etc.) Low/Med/High fired?
- Size of pot in ml or oz.
- What year/decade the pot was made.
- If the pot is thin-walled, medium, or thick-walled.
- How long is the pour?
- Where you acquired the pot.
- What type of tea you make with it.
- What qualities the pot has on tea. i.e. Why do you like to brew a certain tea in it, and what does it do for that tea?

Here is someone linking to TIM's site, without his permission, to talk about nothing relevant (or even correct!)...

http://www.polypm.com.cn/english/pmwp71 ... rt70733351
^Lotus & Frog, by; similar to the one Toki is showing on his blog---but being less ornate and blue in color, is Toki's worth the same or less...it's all priceless and of no concern to me :p ?:
http://themandarinstea.blogspot.com/201 ... -with.html

And here, as usual, I have no idea what in God's name bagua is even talking about...

...only a radiocarbon dating test would be able to discern between the real and the fake. However such procedure is very expensive and not always convenient. Also, how many labs have the facility to carry them out?

Guys, this is not a "let's discuss every crackpot idea or half formed theory about Yixing pottery" thread. It's called the showoff thread for a reason. Either post some pics of YOUR OWN PERSONAL COLLECTION, and talk about that, or go begin your own thread about carbon dating Jiang Rong's masterpieces which TIM doesn't even own elsewhere. Seriously. Please. Thank you.

Chip, my apologies if this post results in you having to hear some whining and moaning form certain folks, but it had to be said.

[brandon]

Thanks, TJ, for putting out there what everyone was thinking.



I'll kick things back off with a teapot I acquired recently.

Clay: fine purple ore, low sand content
Size: Usable volume I'd place around 100ml
Use: asamushi sencha (large leaf)

This teapot was made quite some time ago in Yixing for export to Japan. It is a highly suitable utensil for Senchado. The outer wall is thick, but there is a lip inside that is masterfully integrated, to keep tea going up against the lid and dripping out. There is a fine (for the period) multi hole flat filter. Effect of the clay seems superior to my Tokoname.

[brandon]

Put this ugly duck back into service in this chilly winter.

Clay: Duanni (yao bian)
Volume: somewhere around 130ml.
Walls: extremely thick
Pairing: Wuyi Yancha (high oxidation zhong huo)

My usual Duanni hating does not apply to this yao bian teapot. The clay here behaves like much denser clays, due to the over-firing. The clay combined with the very thick walls can hold a high temp for several minutes.

I'll reach for this one when I'm feeling rough and rocky.