May 9th 17 7:24 pm
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Re: buying teapot with real, high quality zisha clay

by lotustea » May 9th 17 7:24 pm

steanze wrote:
lotustea wrote:
Thanks. I thought high quality luni is very rare and expensive. Is this seller reliable? This is an acceptable price. It is a nice pot. A bit big and I prefer xishi style. I think for design decoration that has another layer on the teapot wall then the layer should be in different color to stand out like the plum blossom teapot. Carving into teapot wall like the black xi shi tea pot or this luni teapot is nice too. A xishi pot with carving purple zini or duan ni or luni are nice. Let me know when you find something.
I'd probably call that some kind of duanni, I am not very confident it's actual benshan lvni. It does not look like the benshanlvni of the 60s or late Qing. However, that kind of clay gets called benshan lvni a lot, so it's ok for the seller to call it that way imo (a bit like modern zhuni vs zhuni). The seller is reliable.
My opinion about decorations is that either they're really artistic or they are tacky. That is really only my very personal opinion. Personally, that pot does not make the cut for being artistic.

On Purion, it's really not worth it in my opinion. Can work well as a kettle, but I would not get a pot made of purion: it's entirely different from Yixing. Very porous, does not pick up a shine as nicely as Yixings.
Have you ever try Iga clay teapot from hojotea. They just have that. I think it suppose to be like old Yixing teapot.

May 9th 17 9:57 pm
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Re: buying teapot with real, high quality zisha clay

by steanze » May 9th 17 9:57 pm

I haven't tried the Iga pots from Hojo. But I have seen a lot of claims about whatever clays being like old Yixings, and they've never been true. Notice one thing: those Hojo pots are made on the pottery wheel. Yixing clay can't be made on the wheel because of its composition. Will they perform the same? :?
This does not mean that Hojo's pots will make bad tea. Maybe they make good tea. But if you want a Yixing, you can't get one of those Hojo pots hoping that it's kind of like the same thing...

May 10th 17 7:10 pm
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Re: buying teapot with real, high quality zisha clay

by lotustea » May 10th 17 7:10 pm

steanze wrote: I haven't tried the Iga pots from Hojo. But I have seen a lot of claims about whatever clays being like old Yixings, and they've never been true. Notice one thing: those Hojo pots are made on the pottery wheel. Yixing clay can't be made on the wheel because of its composition. Will they perform the same? :?
This does not mean that Hojo's pots will make bad tea. Maybe they make good tea. But if you want a Yixing, you can't get one of those Hojo pots hoping that it's kind of like the same thing...
Japanese product is just more reliable. Chinese market is shady and risky. You have to know what you are doing. The only reason I care about zisha is because it absorbs tea flavor and improve quality and become more shiny after some use. I don't know if Iga clay do this. I think I need to see more customer recommendations and comparison between Iga and Yixing before I buy. This is a big world, I'm just not convince there isn't a natural or man-make material that is similar to zisha or better. However, the most important is the material should not cause health problem.

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May 11th 17 5:59 am
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Re: buying teapot with real, high quality zisha clay

by chrl42 » May 11th 17 5:59 am

steanze wrote: For puerh, I think the Wistaria cakes are quite good teas with a bit of age on them.
If you can find pre 2003 Dayi cakes that would be also nice, but they can be expensive.

For your reference, here is an example of late Qing hei ni:

http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a63 ... exps9d.jpg
http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a63 ... b9tsyd.jpg
http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a63 ... sv5p8b.jpg
U sure it's not from reduction method?

Here's my understanding of Heini and Benshan,

My understanding, those black clays used during older days, they are mostly fired in reduction method (a way of firing that removes air causing chemical effect) or put a charcole in it.

Heini during F1 days, are manganese oxide and cobalt oxide mixed..

So-called natural Heini, is actually Jiani of sorts, somewhat low-quality Yixing clay, the texture is quite coarse and iron-rich..back in the days they didn't use clays like this..but I heard this clay is quite amazing when seasoned.


On Benshan Luni, pure Benshan used during 'antique' days are really, really rare. Because this clay needs a very high temperature and so on, firing is almost too difficult especially under bad condition like older days. Most white-ish clays of older days are actually Baini (kaolin-rich clay used to make kitchen utilities) or Duanni (there is a famous ROC mine near Mt.Huanglong), so up until 70s this clay was mostly used to paint on other clays,

In 70s, mine #4 and #5 opened, these mines had 2 of very famous Huanglong clays, these are Benshan Luni and Di Cao Qing..and with a better firing condition (these days, can control the kiln individually), very rarely, but high-quality Luni can come out,

#4 DCQ is almost not possible to find these days, was Gu Jing-zhou's favorite clay and probably highest-quality clay that came out after the ROC, #4 Luni still exists, owned by a few potter, bcos it's too sophisticated clay, many potters are reluctant to use (bad plasticity and difficult firing), once fired wrong then just wasting it! Previous 3 pics are very typical #4 Luni examples. Ownership of #4 clays is mostly related with the Factory-1.

#5 DCQ and Luni are many (if compared to #4), are what make up most of genuine Huanglong DCQ and Luni, because #5 mine was being mined even after Factory-1 shut down, high-quality #5 mine clays were still owned by none Factory-1 potters or the one unrelated to Factory-1..although its quality doesn't match #4..but it was the last Huanglong mountain mine anyways..

May 11th 17 4:05 pm
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Re: buying teapot with real, high quality zisha clay

by steanze » May 11th 17 4:05 pm

chrl42 wrote:
U sure it's not from reduction method?

Here's my understanding of Heini and Benshan,

My understanding, those black clays used during older days, they are mostly fired in reduction method (a way of firing that removes air causing chemical effect) or put a charcole in it.

Heini during F1 days, are manganese oxide and cobalt oxide mixed..

So-called natural Heini, is actually Jiani of sorts, somewhat low-quality Yixing clay, the texture is quite coarse and iron-rich..back in the days they didn't use clays like this..but I heard this clay is quite amazing when seasoned.


On Benshan Luni, pure Benshan used during 'antique' days are really, really rare. Because this clay needs a very high temperature and so on, firing is almost too difficult especially under bad condition like older days. Most white-ish clays of older days are actually Baini (kaolin-rich clay used to make kitchen utilities) or Duanni (there is a famous ROC mine near Mt.Huanglong), so up until 70s this clay was mostly used to paint on other clays,

In 70s, mine #4 and #5 opened, these mines had 2 of very famous Huanglong clays, these are Benshan Luni and Di Cao Qing..and with a better firing condition (these days, can control the kiln individually), very rarely, but high-quality Luni can come out,

#4 DCQ is almost not possible to find these days, was Gu Jing-zhou's favorite clay and probably highest-quality clay that came out after the ROC, #4 Luni still exists, owned by a few potter, bcos it's too sophisticated clay, many potters are reluctant to use (bad plasticity and difficult firing), once fired wrong then just wasting it! Previous 3 pics are very typical #4 Luni examples. Ownership of #4 clays is mostly related with the Factory-1.

#5 DCQ and Luni are many (if compared to #4), are what make up most of genuine Huanglong DCQ and Luni, because #5 mine was being mined even after Factory-1 shut down, high-quality #5 mine clays were still owned by none Factory-1 potters or the one unrelated to Factory-1..although its quality doesn't match #4..but it was the last Huanglong mountain mine anyways..
It could be from reduction firing - the color is quite homogeneous, so I would not think of that as the most likely possibility, but it is definitely not impossible.

May 20th 17 9:32 am
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Re: buying teapot with real, high quality zisha clay

by tcsmeg » May 20th 17 9:32 am

tingjunkie wrote:
lotustea wrote: Someday when I find a trustworthy seller and someone who can help me find a real zisha teapot then I'll buy a high quality and nice artistic design zisha teapot to satisfy my curiosity.
Can you be more specific about what you're looking for in an "artistic" design? Depending on what you mean, you definitely don't have to spend $1000 and over for a non-simple teapot.

Here is a nice peach motif with quite decent real clay for less than $100.

Here is a classic bamboo theme pot for $176.

Happy to help you, but you have to be more specific about what you're looking for. You wrote, "What am interested to find out is if Wan Ling tea is reliable and from them I'll try to find out how much it cost for a good quality grade teapot. I'm not going to buy what they currently have. Seeing their prices I know the teapots are not good quality. I'm going to ask them to find what I'm looking for." It doesn't make much sense to ask a shop selling crap teapots like Wan Ling to find you a nice teapot, does it? You don't go to Olive Garden and ask if they can bring in a chef to make you some authentic Italian food. You don't go to Old Navy and ask if they can make you some high quality designer clothes.
Sorry Tingjunkie, I could not agree with you that a good zisha by the master would not reach the figure of usd1000.

I do collection the zisha for quite sometime and do have friend in Yixing help me on my collection. If you want to purchase a zisha by their third tier master (national level) the price is alway ranging from at least USD500 and above. USD1000 is still considered common. Of course it depend how well you know the people there since mostly are from the area of Yi Xing. I did agree that the price tag in some of the reputable chinas zisha website are high, but even that you may not be able to purchase the 1st tier Master, considered as the research master. Their teapot considered an art and only available on international auctions or if you have a personal contact with him.

However, the 5th tier master, consider the apprentice in the line for a few years is still available to us. Their price range are from 40USD to 400USD. It much depend on the talent of these young apprentice. Some of the apprentice like 杨春雨, the cheapest zisha teapot I have seen from him is 1600USD.

The 1st 2nd 3rd ..... apprentice level of the master is the China ways of following Japan in recognising the traditional craftsmanship just as the tetsubin master Takashi Kitten awarded as national treasure. It is a very basic guideline on judgement of the value on each zisha. Of course it could not be justify as an guarantee to the value. Some of the master do allow some of their apprentice to share his name in the selling of the zisha including using his stamp and certificate. That is how purchasing a zisha still need to go back to experience.

I would suggest, unless you know the person, it is advisable to learnt and read more at least a few years before you are comfortable to go for zisha with value more than 500USD.

The above are on the modern zisha. The antique like master 顾景周,the price is beyond what we could imagine even he live in the 20th century.

Surprisingly the price of zisha is higher than tetsubin, that is something I am quite puzzled. Maybe it is pulled up by the booming of china economy. Just as the painting; the western painting monetary value always higher in the pass but not the eastern painting although both the beauty value are invaluable even that the history value in eastern painting are even much longer.

May 20th 17 4:26 pm
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Re: buying teapot with real, high quality zisha clay

by lotustea » May 20th 17 4:26 pm

tcsmeg wrote:
tingjunkie wrote:
lotustea wrote: Someday when I find a trustworthy seller and someone who can help me find a real zisha teapot then I'll buy a high quality and nice artistic design zisha teapot to satisfy my curiosity.
Can you be more specific about what you're looking for in an "artistic" design? Depending on what you mean, you definitely don't have to spend $1000 and over for a non-simple teapot.

Here is a nice peach motif with quite decent real clay for less than $100.

Here is a classic bamboo theme pot for $176.

Happy to help you, but you have to be more specific about what you're looking for. You wrote, "What am interested to find out is if Wan Ling tea is reliable and from them I'll try to find out how much it cost for a good quality grade teapot. I'm not going to buy what they currently have. Seeing their prices I know the teapots are not good quality. I'm going to ask them to find what I'm looking for." It doesn't make much sense to ask a shop selling crap teapots like Wan Ling to find you a nice teapot, does it? You don't go to Olive Garden and ask if they can bring in a chef to make you some authentic Italian food. You don't go to Old Navy and ask if they can make you some high quality designer clothes.
Sorry Tingjunkie, I could not agree with you that a good zisha by the master would not reach the figure of usd1000.

I do collection the zisha for quite sometime and do have friend in Yixing help me on my collection. If you want to purchase a zisha by their third tier master (national level) the price is alway ranging from at least USD500 and above. USD1000 is still considered common. Of course it depend how well you know the people there since mostly are from the area of Yi Xing. I did agree that the price tag in some of the reputable chinas zisha website are high, but even that you may not be able to purchase the 1st tier Master, considered as the research master. Their teapot considered an art and only available on international auctions or if you have a personal contact with him.

However, the 5th tier master, consider the apprentice in the line for a few years is still available to us. Their price range are from 40USD to 400USD. It much depend on the talent of these young apprentice. Some of the apprentice like 杨春雨, the cheapest zisha teapot I have seen from him is 1600USD.

The 1st 2nd 3rd ..... apprentice level of the master is the China ways of following Japan in recognising the traditional craftsmanship just as the tetsubin master Takashi Kitten awarded as national treasure. It is a very basic guideline on judgement of the value on each zisha. Of course it could not be justify as an guarantee to the value. Some of the master do allow some of their apprentice to share his name in the selling of the zisha including using his stamp and certificate. That is how purchasing a zisha still need to go back to experience.

I would suggest, unless you know the person, it is advisable to learnt and read more at least a few years before you are comfortable to go for zisha with value more than 500USD.

The above are on the modern zisha. The antique like master 顾景周,the price is beyond what we could imagine even he live in the 20th century.

Surprisingly the price of zisha is higher than tetsubin, that is something I am quite puzzled. Maybe it is pulled up by the booming of china economy. Just as the painting; the western painting monetary value always higher in the pass but not the eastern painting although both the beauty value are invaluable even that the history value in eastern painting are even much longer.
How much something is value depend on how much you willing to pay for it. People are not willing to pay hundred of millions of dollars for an asian painting. Art is an investment scam. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

May 20th 17 6:04 pm
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Re: buying teapot with real, high quality zisha clay

by steanze » May 20th 17 6:04 pm

lotustea wrote: People are not willing to pay hundred of millions of dollars for an asian painting.
... I find the description "asian painting" a bit offensive to be honest. Maybe you did not mean it that way. But it sounds like you're implying that "asian" paintings are not that valuable, while non-asian paintings maybe are...
Which, by the way, is false: this "asian painting" sold for $34.7 millions

https://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2016 ... hong-kong/

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Re: buying teapot with real, high quality zisha clay

by tingjunkie » May 21st 17 8:25 am

tcsmeg wrote: Sorry Tingjunkie, I could not agree with you that a good zisha by the master would not reach the figure of usd1000.
I didn't say anything about master level pots. I just said that you don't have to spend $1000 for something with good clay that has a more intricate design than a simple shui ping.

May 21st 17 10:47 am
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Re: buying teapot with real, high quality zisha clay

by tcsmeg » May 21st 17 10:47 am

tingjunkie wrote:
tcsmeg wrote: Sorry Tingjunkie, I could not agree with you that a good zisha by the master would not reach the figure of usd1000.
I didn't say anything about master level pots. I just said that you don't have to spend $1000 for something with good clay that has a more intricate design than a simple shui ping.
Do agree with you. Even the apprentice level also do willing to have the good clay on their craft.

May 21st 17 11:04 am
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Re: buying teapot with real, high quality zisha clay

by tcsmeg » May 21st 17 11:04 am

lotustea wrote:
tcsmeg wrote:
tingjunkie wrote:
lotustea wrote: Someday when I find a trustworthy seller and someone who can help me find a real zisha teapot then I'll buy a high quality and nice artistic design zisha teapot to satisfy my curiosity.
Can you be more specific about what you're looking for in an "artistic" design? Depending on what you mean, you definitely don't have to spend $1000 and over for a non-simple teapot.

Here is a nice peach motif with quite decent real clay for less than $100.

Here is a classic bamboo theme pot for $176.

Happy to help you, but you have to be more specific about what you're looking for. You wrote, "What am interested to find out is if Wan Ling tea is reliable and from them I'll try to find out how much it cost for a good quality grade teapot. I'm not going to buy what they currently have. Seeing their prices I know the teapots are not good quality. I'm going to ask them to find what I'm looking for." It doesn't make much sense to ask a shop selling crap teapots like Wan Ling to find you a nice teapot, does it? You don't go to Olive Garden and ask if they can bring in a chef to make you some authentic Italian food. You don't go to Old Navy and ask if they can make you some high quality designer clothes.
Sorry Tingjunkie, I could not agree with you that a good zisha by the master would not reach the figure of usd1000.

I do collection the zisha for quite sometime and do have friend in Yixing help me on my collection. If you want to purchase a zisha by their third tier master (national level) the price is alway ranging from at least USD500 and above. USD1000 is still considered common. Of course it depend how well you know the people there since mostly are from the area of Yi Xing. I did agree that the price tag in some of the reputable chinas zisha website are high, but even that you may not be able to purchase the 1st tier Master, considered as the research master. Their teapot considered an art and only available on international auctions or if you have a personal contact with him.

However, the 5th tier master, consider the apprentice in the line for a few years is still available to us. Their price range are from 40USD to 400USD. It much depend on the talent of these young apprentice. Some of the apprentice like 杨春雨, the cheapest zisha teapot I have seen from him is 1600USD.

The 1st 2nd 3rd ..... apprentice level of the master is the China ways of following Japan in recognising the traditional craftsmanship just as the tetsubin master Takashi Kitten awarded as national treasure. It is a very basic guideline on judgement of the value on each zisha. Of course it could not be justify as an guarantee to the value. Some of the master do allow some of their apprentice to share his name in the selling of the zisha including using his stamp and certificate. That is how purchasing a zisha still need to go back to experience.

I would suggest, unless you know the person, it is advisable to learnt and read more at least a few years before you are comfortable to go for zisha with value more than 500USD.

The above are on the modern zisha. The antique like master 顾景周,the price is beyond what we could imagine even he live in the 20th century.

Surprisingly the price of zisha is higher than tetsubin, that is something I am quite puzzled. Maybe it is pulled up by the booming of china economy. Just as the painting; the western painting monetary value always higher in the pass but not the eastern painting although both the beauty value are invaluable even that the history value in eastern painting are even much longer.
How much something is value depend on how much you willing to pay for it. People are not willing to pay hundred of millions of dollars for an asian painting. Art is an investment scam. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I don't think art is an investment scam. Then all the painting and art material in the mainstream will be valueless. Of course auction house scams scandal is not a new news.
Just like zisha pot; people willing to buy in term of thousand because they confident the present 3rd tier level will be recognised as 2nd or 1st tier in the next few years. The value would be increased and if the teapot is properly maintained, the colours would be more shining and the value will be in a much higher level. That is what happening now in china market for the zisha enthusiasts.

Of course if you treat the zisha as a tool, then it is silly to buy a zisha in value of thousands. However to a zisha enthusiasts, if he confident the zisha value will be more and yet he can still use it for the next few years, the thousands of money on the zisha would be an investment to them. No way to say they are silly.

The same go to the tetsubin. That is why If you compare a machine made (probably less than 150USD) and famous master hand craft tetsubin, the price different is skyrocket high apart it is hand crafted. The crafted tetsubin value would always increased when the time pass by.

May 29th 17 7:01 pm
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Re: buying teapot with real, high quality zisha clay

by lotustea » May 29th 17 7:01 pm

steanze wrote:
lotustea wrote: People are not willing to pay hundred of millions of dollars for an asian painting.
... I find the description "asian painting" a bit offensive to be honest. Maybe you did not mean it that way. But it sounds like you're implying that "asian" paintings are not that valuable, while non-asian paintings maybe are...
Which, by the way, is false: this "asian painting" sold for $34.7 millions

https://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2016 ... hong-kong/
$34.7 million is not anywhere near $100 million. It is pale in comparison to many other painting by Western artists. Look at this list (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... _paintings). There are two paintings near the bottom of the list from chinese artist. Value depend on how much one willing to pay for it. Picasso paintings are very expensive, but his paintings worth $5 to me.