Yixing dedication criteria - what clay/shape for what tea?

[chrl42]

Well Chri. You are right that it's not a culture in the North for Kung-fu Cha, but it's a tradition in the South where they been cultivating Wuyi and Anxi oolong.

Here is a story of a smallest pair:
http://www.marshaln.com/2012/03/made-during-the-ming/

Since when?

[etorix]

after handling the one she uses at her shop, im definitely getting one when she returns from China with more:
http://www.the-chinese-tea-company.com/ ... aPots.html

Code: Select all

Chaozhou Red Clay Tea Pots are made of clay from the ancient city of Chaozhou of Guang Dong Province in south China. They are hand thrown on wheels with thinner walls comparing to Yixing teapots. Chaozhou Red Clay teapots are prefered to brew Phoenix Dan Cong Teas by Chaozhou people.

exquisitely fabricated
course she may have to make me tea first in one

[chrl42]

I don't like to argue but communicate. If I have a good antique, I'd rather wanna know its correct origins..

The first person who brought Chinese style tea brewing to Japan was a monk called Yin Yuan Long Qi (隐元隆琦,1592~1673), and the first Yixing teapots, 2 pots, one named 'Shi Dabin', the other nameless. Each sizes were 800ml.

The next communication between China-Japan concerning Yixing teapot was 19th century, the Japanese called Chinese Yixings and antiques '唐物-Tang dynasty stuff'. 'Tang stuff' went into Japan from 19th c. until Sino-Japanese war began. These pots have traits, egg-shaped Jun Lun Ju around 120ml (marshal's pots are similar), ball-clay added, tall-shaped (seldom stout-looking) and famous studios (Tie Hua Xuan, Wu De Xing etc) ROC Yixing teapots made up these.

The Japanese didn't have a correct understanding of using Yixing teapot, unlike SE Asians (cos they were overseas Chinese), many used them as soy sauce container, after Sino-Japanese ended, they'd wanna re-trade with China.

Unlike Chinese, The Japanese liked small, precize, feminine stuffs, they required more than 'Tang stuff'. Wang Yin-chun at that time, used a mould like Factory-1 Yixings, quick and precize. Japanese liked them very much, 'mould-using' tradition when making Yixing teapot started since then.


Even though trade with Japan began around 19c., they sometimes ship earlier-made creations, just like many of Teksing/Desaru pots were Qianlong period. Saying that, marshal's pot doesn't mean it cannot be 'Ming dynasty's'. My doubt rather starts it came with a pair, 19c's export-Yixings were commercial stuffs, they were hand-made and duplicated looking,

Most of Ming dynasty Yixings were unearthed creations. They hardly come in perfection shape, a pair even rarer. Next is clay. Ming dynasty Yixings' clay size is said to be 25~35 hole-sieve. Marshal's pots are rather similar to late-Qing~ROC Qing Shui Ni, and shape follows Jun Lun Zhu-style....I could be darn wrong, too

[yanom]

Yes, my understanding was always that gongfu-style brewing is a "new thing" relative to the widespread custom of tea-drinking in China. (Same way that eating spicy food is a "new thing" in China: chillis didn't arrive until a couple of hundred years ago and most parts of China didn't eat spicy food until much more recently than that - they ate the style of food local to them.)

It seems that sometimes the "traditional" or "historical" ideas about Chinese tea get mixed together: for instance, how many of the people who wrote historical texts hundreds of years ago about water quality or teapots would have drunk pu'er? And how many of them would have drunk it gongfu-style?

So can we say that tea is a tradition in China but drinking pu'er from yixing teapots gongfu-style is not?

[MarshalN]

Hmm, I somehow got involved in this even though I didn't say anything.

I am not making the claim that this pair is from the Ming. That claim is made by the Japanese person who wrote the inscription on the box, and which I'm merely repeating. The person who wrote the inscription is Sato Kian, who died in 1883.

Your claim of there being two distinct and separated instances of "communication" between China and Japan separated by over 200 years is quite incorrect, however. The Japanese developed senchado during the Edo period, and its origins is indeed widely attributed to Ingen Ryuki (隐元隆琦). There was a great fascination with things from China during this period for this particular tea practice, and it is incorrect to claim that there was no communication between the two at all. In fact, Nagasaki had a vibrant Chinese community that traded Chinese goods to/from Japan, and there was plenty of cultural exchange on an unofficial level during that time. Things like teaware certainly made their way into Japan as well, just like many other things (books, paintings, etc) that are better documented, time wise. They went through Nagasaki, and sometimes Ryukyu. Either way, the Japanese had plenty of access to Yixing wares if they wanted it, and we know that some, at least, specifically ordered things made for them from Yixing. The trade increased greatly during the latter half of the 19th century, but to say that nothing happened before that is dead wrong.

As for pairs - the Japanese liked to collect yixing in pairs, for reason I do not yet fully understand. Walk into any Japanese antique stores that sell older yixings, and you'll find many, many pairs, often with custom made boxes and inscriptions that match the pots. You never see that in China, Taiwan, or Hong Kong. It's just a different collection aesthetic.

In English you can read Patricia Graham's The Art of Sencha, especially chapter 2, for more info.

[MarshalN]

So can we say that tea is a tradition in China but drinking pu'er from yixing teapots gongfu-style is not?

That's a creation from 1970s onward. Nobody used to do that.

[Tead Off]

Hmm, I somehow got involved in this even though I didn't say anything.

I am not making the claim that this pair is from the Ming. That claim is made by the Japanese person who wrote the inscription on the box, and which I'm merely repeating. The person who wrote the inscription is Sato Kian, who died in 1883.

Your claim of there being two distinct and separated instances of "communication" between China and Japan separated by over 200 years is quite incorrect, however. The Japanese developed senchado during the Edo period, and its origins is indeed widely attributed to Ingen Ryuki (隐元隆琦). There was a great fascination with things from China during this period for this particular tea practice, and it is incorrect to claim that there was no communication between the two at all. In fact, Nagasaki had a vibrant Chinese community that traded Chinese goods to/from Japan, and there was plenty of cultural exchange on an unofficial level during that time. Things like teaware certainly made their way into Japan as well, just like many other things (books, paintings, etc) that are better documented, time wise. They went through Nagasaki, and sometimes Ryukyu. Either way, the Japanese had plenty of access to Yixing wares if they wanted it, and we know that some, at least, specifically ordered things made for them from Yixing. The trade increased greatly during the latter half of the 19th century, but to say that nothing happened before that is dead wrong.

As for pairs - the Japanese liked to collect yixing in pairs, for reason I do not yet fully understand. Walk into any Japanese antique stores that sell older yixings, and you'll find many, many pairs, often with custom made boxes and inscriptions that match the pots. You never see that in China, Taiwan, or Hong Kong. It's just a different collection aesthetic.

In English you can read Patricia Graham's The Art of Sencha, especially chapter 2, for more info.

With no disrespect for either you nor Chrl42, this is another illustration of the reliance on 'history' which can be either revisionist or incorrect in any given case. There are numerous instances of finds in China which have made all previous conclusions wrong. It's fun to talk about these things but let's remember that none of us are certain about anything.

[yanom]

So can we say that tea is a tradition in China but drinking pu'er from yixing teapots gongfu-style is not?

That's a creation from 1970s onward. Nobody used to do that.

So, if a pre-1970s yixing teapot is a good match for pu'er, it's by accident rather than design?

[Tead Off]

So can we say that tea is a tradition in China but drinking pu'er from yixing teapots gongfu-style is not?

That's a creation from 1970s onward. Nobody used to do that.

So, if a pre-1970s yixing teapot is a good match for pu'er, it's by accident rather than design?

Was there any yixing teapot designed for any particular tea? It would take a lof of convincing for me to say yes.

[yanom]

Interesting. Thinking about it I guess yixing teapots were originally used for green tea so yes, I see what you mean.
As for tradition: I suppose the current norms for drinking pu'er are a very modern invention. And the type of better-quality pu'er available for most of us to buy is so different from the better-quality pu'er sold 30 years ago. So one is fairly free to make one's own rules -- witness how many people in the West (perhaps can say outside Guangdong/Hong Kong) seem to prefer young sheng to aged sheng or shu.

[chrl42]

Reply to marshaln, there is a famous Yixing book called 名壶图录 written in 19th c.,shows some of Ming pot(at least, to be guessed). So no Ming pots in Japan don't make sense, they are just few.

Reply to Tead Off, I truly believe there are pots designed for teas tho Gongfu Zhunis found during 18th~early 20th c. in Fujian/Guangdong areas are mostly small, stout, thin and round. Weng Jun-dong of late-Qing describes "stout-looking is practical because after pouring is done, no water is left". Adding to that, stout-looking is practical because back then most popular tea there was Yancha, because of the shape of leaves, left water can affect the tea, 2nd, inserting to pot is easier because they are long-shaped, this applies to DC, too.

During late-Qing, they mostly sent tall and round ones to Japan, and gold-rimmed ones to Thailand (Thai ones were slightly higher-quality)

When Factory-1 was founded, they wanted to continue exportation to Gongfu drinking areas, this time they used moulds and Hongni instead of Zhuni. During 5~70's they mostly made stout-looking SP, known as 5-style SPs (except Ba Le, took it from Japan-exported SP in late-Qing) and Ping Di (Taiwan word, stout) SP. But as Zhaozhuang Hongni depleted, they made pots for Taiwan instead, Gaoshan drinking area. Known as 82 little stuffs.

Next is clay, clays used for those pots are just perfect to brew those teas, one example, clay used for '82 little stuff' was silica/iron-rich Pin Zini..if using for Pu, it will turn out very greasy..this kind of topic needs over-night to talk about...but just to say these guys were rather organized

[Tead Off]

Agree that in the modern era, pots and clays have more thought put into them. More varieties of teas, more communication with tea drinkers and teas from outside the Yixing area all add up to a very different picture than in early ROC, Ming/Qing periods.

And, let's not forget the development of the Chaozhou teapots and the excellent pairings they make with Yancha, Dancong, & Gaoshan. IMO, maybe equal to Yixing teapots and in many cases, more interestingly designed for gongfu brewing.

[MarshalN]

Reply to marshaln, there is a famous Yixing book called 名壶图录 written in 19th c.,shows some of Ming pot(at least, to be guessed). So no Ming pots in Japan don't make sense, they are just few.

Reply to Tead Off, I truly believe there are pots designed for teas tho Gongfu Zhunis found during 18th~early 20th c. in Fujian/Guangdong areas are mostly small, stout, thin and round. Weng Jun-dong of late-Qing describes "stout-looking is practical because after pouring is done, no water is left". Adding to that, stout-looking is practical because back then most popular tea there was Yancha, because of the shape of leaves, left water can affect the tea, 2nd, inserting to pot is easier because they are long-shaped, this applies to DC, too.

During late-Qing, they mostly sent tall and round ones to Japan, and gold-rimmed ones to Thailand (Thai ones were slightly higher-quality)

When Factory-1 was founded, they wanted to continue exportation to Gongfu drinking areas, this time they used moulds and Hongni instead of Zhuni. During 5~70's they mostly made stout-looking SP, known as 5-style SPs (except Ba Le, took it from Japan-exported SP in late-Qing) and Ping Di (Taiwan word, stout) SP. But as Zhaozhuang Hongni depleted, they made pots for Taiwan instead, Gaoshan drinking area. Known as 82 little stuffs.

Next is clay, clays used for those pots are just perfect to brew those teas, one example, clay used for '82 little stuff' was silica/iron-rich Pin Zini..if using for Pu, it will turn out very greasy..this kind of topic needs over-night to talk about...but just to say these guys were rather organized

茗壺圖錄 had a total of 32 pots in it, mostly from the author's friends' collections, so while it's the only work of its kind, I'd hardly say it's representative. If anything, if one collector and his friends can have a number of Ming pots by just polling his friends, then the total sum of items out there must be magnitudes more. Back then is not like now - you don't know who owns what by just looking at their blogs.

Tead Off - yes, we always argue over history and revise things, but then, we learn from the argument and the next theory being advanced will be, hopefully, an improvement on the last one.

[tingjunkie]

So can we say that tea is a tradition in China but drinking pu'er from yixing teapots gongfu-style is not?

That's a creation from 1970s onward. Nobody used to do that.

So, if a pre-1970s yixing teapot is a good match for pu'er, it's by accident rather than design?

Was there any yixing teapot designed for any particular tea? It would take a lof of convincing for me to say yes.

Well, occasionally, yes...

[chrl42]

茗壺圖錄 had a total of 32 pots in it, mostly from the author's friends' collections, so while it's the only work of its kind, I'd hardly say it's representative. If anything, if one collector and his friends can have a number of Ming pots by just polling his friends, then the total sum of items out there must be magnitudes more. Back then is not like now - you don't know who owns what by just looking at their blogs.

Tead Off - yes, we always argue over history and revise things, but then, we learn from the argument and the next theory being advanced will be, hopefully, an improvement on the last one.

Sounds like Japan is a place of jewels, it sure is my next destination to visit...