The unofficial/official HAGI topic!

[heliospace]

My second Japanese pottery purchase. For 2015, I am leaping into Japanese tea!!! Thought this would be a good start. I'm no pottery expert, however, is there a difference between hagi sake and tea cups? Happy 2015 and CHEERS!

[rdl]

"heliospace "is there a difference between hagi sake and tea cups?"

Price... no kidding, the pricing for a highly prized sake cup is well up there. Not to say any well-made hagiyaki is inexpensive. The shapes of the two differ and often size, but a sake cup is not always smaller than a small tea cup. The glaze and clay is as variable as cups and tea bowls.
My guess is also that the success rate of a "perfect" sake cup from the kiln is few and that too determines the price, but a potter can tell me if I am correct or not.

[Tead Off]

"heliospace "is there a difference between hagi sake and tea cups?"

Price... no kidding, the pricing for a highly prized sake cup is well up there. Not to say any well-made hagiyaki is inexpensive. The shapes of the two differ and often size, but a sake cup is not always smaller than a small tea cup. The glaze and clay is as variable as cups and tea bowls.
My guess is also that the success rate of a "perfect" sake cup from the kiln is few and that too determines the price, but a potter can tell me if I am correct or not.

I was always under the impression that guinomi were all sake cups but tea drinkers use them as well. In the case of Hagi, I wouldn't interchangeably use a guinomi for sake and tea as the buildup of alcohol would affect the tea's taste.

In a Japanese restaurant, I've never been served a guinomi with tea, always a yunomi. And, with sake, always a guinomi.

[rdl]

"heliospace "is there a difference between hagi sake and tea cups?"

Price... no kidding, the pricing for a highly prized sake cup is well up there. Not to say any well-made hagiyaki is inexpensive. The shapes of the two differ and often size, but a sake cup is not always smaller than a small tea cup. The glaze and clay is as variable as cups and tea bowls.
My guess is also that the success rate of a "perfect" sake cup from the kiln is few and that too determines the price, but a potter can tell me if I am correct or not.

I was always under the impression that guinomi were all sake cups but tea drinkers use them as well. In the case of Hagi, I wouldn't interchangeably use a guinomi for sake and tea as the buildup of alcohol would affect the tea's taste.

In a Japanese restaurant, I've never been served a guinomi with tea, always a yunomi. And, with sake, always a guinomi.

If I am understanding you, I can add that I've looked at some cups and was not sure if it was a guinomi or yunomi, and maybe being a foreigner the easiest answer for the shop owner was to say both, but I think the answer that it could be used for both was more than just that. I have also seen very expensive guinomi that were separate from the tea ware items, so I assume were bought just for that purpose.
I have some guinomi I would not use for tea because either the size or shape seems awkward for tea. And I agree to keep them separate due to the taste imparted by the sake as you mention.

[Tead Off]

With the exception of drinking gyokuro and temomicha out of very small sized cups, and this is really only for a tiny percentage of tea drinkers in Japan, westerners are the ones that transpose the Chinese style of small cups for Japanese sencha and roasted teas. It's nice to do what we feel suits us, but the distinction is quite apparent between guinomi and yunomi. Personally, I love drinking out of Hagi guinomi and yunomi. Most of the time, these vessels feel good in the hand and at the lips. Some of the guinomi and yunomi that fetch very high prices are ergonomic nightmares. Nothing is worse than a cup that your lips have to fight against to drink your tea out of. Either rough, odd-shapen, rock-like. Maybe aesthetically interesting but not so practical.

[heliospace]

I was just informed that those are likely not Hagi. I guess it's time to study more. And also, what pottery category would those cups fall in then if they're not hagi? Cheers!

P.S. rdl: Thanks. I see that price difference when searching. Wow.

[rdl]

Tead Off,
I agree with your point about smaller cups, however I have seen and been offered tea in so many different kinds of cups that I try to generalize about Japanese tea ware. I was trying to point out the opposite, that some guinomi are larger than the 1 inch cups that we often see. And those larger cups seem to be about the size of a smaller sencha cup. So yes, most all guinomi are discernable. But there are still some that really don't fit a perfectly clear category. Or we are at liberty to decide for ourselves without offending traditional sensitivites.
It's interesting that you point out the "ergonomic nightmares." The more trational potters don't seem to fit this description (again generalizing) but each time I visit Robert Yellin's web gallery I see more contemporary works that I feel express so much of the artist, the art, and less of the simplicity of function, and it makes me feel I would look at these beautiful works but never feel comfortable drinking from them.
Heliospace,
I went right into your question and never mentioned I really like the glaze of your cups. That white against rustic brown is very nice. It is hard to get a sense of size, and I couldn't be sure where they are from, but they are very nice. Do you have any more information about them?

[heliospace]

rdl: I don't know much about them. So I took some more photos. Mind you, the teapot is 650ml for size comparison. The cups hold, to the top, about 150ml each. Here are some photos along with the maker marks. All I can do otherwise is shrug my shoulders at what I have here... But I like them as tea cups... And I still think, despite someone telling me they're not, they are Hagiware.

[debunix]

They're lovely and they hold tea, so I call them teacups. My favorite size for teacups is a little wider than tall, to better disperse heat for quick drinking infusions, and holding 5-8 ounces, so able to hold a full infusion from most of my teapots. It's a tricky size to find in Hagi ware, because it's bigger than the standard Sake cup, and smaller than a chawan--and most that hold about that number of ounces are tall/narrow which doesn't work so well for teas infused with very hot water.

It turns out that the cups I like best are the kumidashi-wan, apparently used for water but not for the tea itself during the tea ceremony. They often come in sets of 5--perhaps that is what yours are. Still, I call them teacups, and am happy when I find something I like in that size/style.

[rdl]

They're lovely and they hold tea, so I call them teacups. My favorite size for teacups is a little wider than tall, to better disperse heat for quick drinking infusions, and holding 5-8 ounces, so able to hold a full infusion from most of my teapots. It's a tricky size to find in Hagi ware, because it's bigger than the standard Sake cup, and smaller than a chawan--and most that hold about that number of ounces are tall/narrow which doesn't work so well for teas infused with very hot water.

It turns out that the cups I like best are the kumidashi-wan, apparently used for water but not for the tea itself during the tea ceremony. They often come in sets of 5--perhaps that is what yours are. Still, I call them teacups, and am happy when I find something I like in that size/style.

debunix,
Ippuku wan often are like that. I'm not sure if they follow a set size but they seem often seem to be wider than tall. Just to point out, according to a very established hagi potter, kumidashi-wan are used for a light bancha tea as a refreshment before the tea ceremony. He had so many sets and I never asked how he'd feel if used for sencha, but it's hard to imagine all of them purchased by tea ceremony practitioners.

[Fuut]

I scored this mizusashi last night.

Made by Takashi Mashita:

G157_07.jpg

G157_06.jpg

G157_19.jpg

[debunix]

Drippy earthy ripply watery.....super!

[looking with suddenly critical eye at plastic water pitcher....]

[Fuut]

Drippy earthy ripply watery.....super!

[looking with suddenly critical eye at plastic water pitcher....]

I love how everyone can count on you to be here and thank you.

[blairswhitaker]

Wow! that is a great Mizusashi, really like it!

[Fuut]

I got myself another yunomi Can't get enough of Seigan Yamane's work.

Plus a set of 2 tea cups by Seigan with his blue and sea cucumber overglaze.