Hagi, presented for your disapproval

[Chip]

OK, here is one ...



More of this Guinomi under THE Hagi Topic.
http://www.teachat.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 77#p163277

[Geekgirl]

Is it possible that these were made by proficient students? (former/current?) or maybe that they were batch produced for a lower-cost retail market and he's just trying to bump the price by providing a counterfeit box?

Regardless of the weasel wording, these boxes are stamped with a forgery. If he is copying the signature and kiln (business) stamp of another artist, I'm sure Japan has forgery/copyright laws similar to most other developed nations.

Even though he doesn't explicitly state "box signed by artist," by presenting it in photos as if it were, is forgery, just as much as Van Meegeren and the Vermeers.

[Victoria]

As for mine, I don't think so Geek. This issue here is just the boxes.

Here are my four from this seller. All in unmistakable Seigan glazes.
As I stated, I have no doubt as to the authenticity of the wares. All of the pieces I bought, match Seigan comparable pieces I already own, so I can see they are genuine.



But I knew something was up with the boxes immediately. The box is most definitely the seller's box:



So the issue is - just how incensed you are by the seller's wording.
.

[Geekgirl]

and whether you think you paid a premium for a box and authentication.

[Victoria]

Right. As for me, no. I got them very low. But as Chip said if there was competition, they would have gone higher. But since I was a repeat buyer I already knew about the boxes and would not have gone much higher.

[Chip]

Nice pieces, Victoria. As I stated, I am 99% certain of the authenticity of at least 4 out of the 5 I purchased, just that tiny little twinge of doubt brought on by the box fiasco.

You can see, the gold wheat guinomi is quite nice, more photos under the Hagi topic.

As I mentioned, I was extremely dismayed by the boxes which look much worse than Victoria's. First impressions can be very strong and they were in this case. I opened the box, and found 5 cruddy, bastardized boxes, yeah I am pretty PO'ed, and I am sorry but I just never thought this was going to happen.

I likely place more significance in them, and I certainly feel like he took advantange of the weakness in ebay buying ... and then just made a huge mess of it.

He has not replied to my message either ... time will tell. Wait til I leave feedback ...

[Chip]

and whether you think you paid a premium for a box and authentication.

Oh, I did actually, well I bid accordingly. I was fortunate in that there were no other bids on any of the 5! But I did bid higher.

The prices paid, hmmm, pretty cheap actually. 5 pices for around 150 $.

Bottom line is, I bought a product from an ebay seller based on more than the actual piece, I bought the piece and the box, the cloth, etc. Everything is fake except hopefully the piece itself.

His prices could go higher as people find him. But not if I have anything to say about it.

[Chip]

Final rant, maybe ...

If we buy a Seigan piece that includes a wood box and this is sold on ebay USA, this should be a Seigan box. If it is not a Seigan box, any seller worth his weight in clay should state the he has made a box for the piece.

As has been mentioned, the piece bears an apparent Seigan kiln stamp. Regardless of the verbage that an English speaking member would 99.9% of the time not be able to read. There was clear misrepresentation at the very least going on.

More valuable info could have been provided other than the seller is a beer and sake buddy with Seigan and he is a great guy.

Lastly, and if this same box is full of smudges and smears and is continuing to smudge/smear, these are clearly defects that should clearly have been stated.

Had this defect been mentioned, or any points above, then any buyer with half a brain would know this is not an artisan box and could bid accordingly and knowingly.

Done ...

[JBaymore]

OK folks... a few thoughts here on Japanese wares...............

Many of the "typical" glazes from sort of "famous" locations in Japan can be bought at one of the local ceramics suppliers in a pre-made format. Just add water and apply. So the glaze looking "correct" to the localle is not a guarantee of authenticity or a particular artist.

For lower priced pieces, many potters often use these commercial supplier preparations .... because making glazes by hand from stuff like rice husk ash, wood ash, and crudely curshed stone is very difficult and labor intensive. On the "master's work" (the high priced stuff) the glazes might certainly be composed from hand processed raw materials. You usually clearly pay for this labor and authenticity.

I can tell you right now... if anyone wants a guinomi with the EXACT classic Mashiko Kaki (persimmon) glaze on it... I can do that for you. I have a supply of the single powdered stone that is that glaze. You can put it right next to one fired at the Hamada kiln in Mashiko. Same glaze. (In fact my stone supply is old and nice... Mashiko's Kumiai (Cooperative) is running out of the good stone now!)

From many materials suppliers in Japan you can now purchase clay (bodies) from a huge number of local areas. So a potter in Mashiko can easily get a clay from Shigaraki or Tamba or wherever to make pieces with. So the clay body matching is not always a problem either.

Matching a kiln stamp almost exactly is kinda' easy. All you need is one original stamped and fired piece by the artist in question. Take a piece of wet clay and press it against the fired stamp. Fire it, then take an impression off of it... fire that, and make a new positive stamp. It will be a little smaller and have a little loss of detail. Subtle. Not easily picked up by the uninitiated.

It was Geekgirl that already said "maybe student's work". Many of the lower priced pieces from many potters (read that as "kilns") in Japan are made by the deshi (apprentices). Or the shokunin (hired professional pottery workers). These pieces are considered the "kiln"s output. And the kiln represents the master potter. So it is certainly considered the "big name" potter's production..... but not the "good stuff". The workshop tradition is and has been alive and well in Japan for a long time. Division of labor, with the master potter being the "supervisor" of the whole operation. This is accepted as the norm.

I was today just at a Mingei exhibition in Boston at the Pucker Gallery (one of the best sources for Japanese pieces in the Norhtheast). Among other things I was looking at a nice Hamada Shoji bowl (one of about 50 of his pieces in the show). I know for a fact that he did not throw or trim the piece. It was almost for certain thrown and trimmed by his son, Shinsaku. Hamada Shoji clearly glazed the piece however. Then it was stacked in a noborigama by someone other than Hamada, and fired by a team of shokunin and apprentices and temporary workers. The price on that gorgeous 22-23" diameter tenmoku and kaki ladle pour bowl; $86,000.00. This one IS considered the "good stuff". It comes with a signed box, of course.

A good quality Hamada Shoji yunomi with a signed box might set you back about $1500-2000 at this point. A Hamada Shoji "general kiln output" yunomi of about the same era and good quality would set you back maybe $100-150. Both are "Hamada kiln" work. If you really look at them.... the quality is CLEARLY different. The general kiln work is OK....good even. The master's work is stunning.

Yes...... forging cheap pieces is crazy from one point of view. But you can more easily get away with selling fake cheap pieces than fake expensive pieces. The people buying the high priced stuff usually are very aware of the nature of the work and can more easily spot the fakes. The lower priced stuff........ not so much. It is like counterfeiting money. A cashier doesn't often check a $20 bill with the currency ID pen. But a $100 bill almost always gets a swipe of the pen. Pass enough twenties ....and you are doing fine.

Potters in Japan are a dime a dozen. It is very, very, VERY competitive there. There are a lot of unknown people making really GOOD pieces......and competing for a piece of the shrinking economic pie. You would not believe the cheap prices that unknown potters frequently get paid for their work over there. I mean ABSURD! So forging even a lesser known "famous name" potter's work can be a big step up on a price-for-a-piece basis. If you can get 円4000 for a forgery but can only sell your own piece for 円2000....... that is a 100 percent increase in gross revenues. It is only the "names" that make the "big bucks" on pots in Japan. Earning that name is a long and difficult road.

best,

..................john

[Proinsias]

Thanks john, great post.

I don't buy much teaware but I get the feeling Teachat wants to hear about the unkown people making really great pieces at ABSURD prices.

I might even upgrade my Ippodo starter kit chawan.

[JBaymore]

Thanks john, great post.

I don't buy much teaware but I get the feeling Teachat wants to hear about the unkown people making really great pieces at ABSURD prices.

I might even upgrade my Ippodo starter kit chawan.

Book your airfare to Japan and brush up on your 日本語. 　

best,

....................john

[Victoria]

Well the seals pressed into the bottom of the new pieces look like the pieces I already have, so if they are fake, they are good fakes. And at the price I paid for them I am happy with them. I believe them to be genuine, so that is all that really matters to me.

Edit 07/25: JBaymore - It also may be true that these are genuine artisan pieces and just the boxes are fake.

[togeika]

Mr. Miyagi say, "Best way not be disappointed: buy pot, not name."
--
Lee A Mashiko Potter In Minnesota

"Whether looking outside or inward, a potter needs to reinterpret, rather than render. " Lee Love, Found In Translation Current Issue Of Studio Potter.

[JBaymore]

Mr. Miyagi say, "Best way not be disappointed: buy pot, not name."

そです。So desu.

best,

.............john

PS: Good to see you here, Lee.

[JBaymore]

Well the seals pressed into the bottom of the new pieces look like the pieces I already have, so if they are fake, they are good fakes. And at the price I paid for them I am happy with them. I believe them to be genuine, so that is all that really matters to me.

Edit 07/25: JBaymore - It also may be true that these are genuine artisan pieces and just the boxes are fake.

Victoria,

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that I think the pieces themselves that Chip OR you have are necessarily fakes..... I don't know this particular artist's work enough to recognize it in any way. Before TeaChat... I'd actually never heard of him. I was just trying to clarify about how easy it actually is sometimes to create simple forgeries and to give some more info on the pottery situation in Japan from first hand experiences. Educational to help with that ole' "Caveat Emptor" thought.

The boxes in both cases certainly "stink to high heaven". I'd be amazed and kinda' apalled if they were "real" from the artist. The Japanese are very particular about their packaging of objects (see the book, "How to Wrap Five Eggs" ).

As I pointed out earlier in the thread....... if you are happy with the pieces themselves and are not buying them with any interest in them as investments or for any re-sale value...and they are purely for the enjoyment of using them..... and you like them...... then all of this does not matter. (See Lee's posting.)

Except that if the boxes are being deliberately mis-repsresented...... or the pieces themselves are,...... than this is a case of fraud. And would be in violation of EBays seller's agreements. And is just "wrong" .

The real problem in this thread is that Chip believed that the boxes were the original artist's boxes and made his bids accordingly. As he has said... he had bid higher than he actually got them for.... it was pure luck that the biding did not get "run up". Otherwise, he would have paid more.

The whole "authenticity" thing is interesting. When I was down at the Pucker yesterday I was looking at a very unique small tenmoku and kaki plate in the show that was attribuited to Hamada Shoji. It was a pattern that I had never seen him do before. I was conversing with the owner of the gallery(whom I know), and he had never seen it either before this one (and he's been handling Hamada work for YEARS). We got into a discussion about the efforts to authenticate and pedigree the piece before it was placed in the show.

best,

.................john