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Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval

by Chip » Jul 25th, '10, 12:31

togeika wrote:Mr. Miyagi say, "Best way not be disappointed: buy pot, not name."
--
Lee A Mashiko Potter In Minnesota

"Whether looking outside or inward, a potter needs to reinterpret, rather than render. " Lee Love, Found In Translation Current Issue Of Studio Potter.
Welcome, togeika, to TeaChat and an interesting topic of discussion. While to a degree I agree with your quote, to a degree I do not. (or maybe I am not understanding it)

I bought the said pieces because I liked them. I have never bought based on a name only, not my style. I liked the pieces, and having the artisan's pieces already ... I then bought based upon the artisan's name. But the piece came first in the decision process.

I also bought a piece I liked from an artisan I had not bought before.

The point here is representation or misrepresentation of a product and its also important wood packaging. The purchase of artisan goods on ebay is the sum of parts, some tangible and some intangible.

Drink what you like, like what you drink ...
drink from what you like, like what you drink from ...

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Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval

by Chip » Jul 25th, '10, 13:32

Thank you everyone for posting. I took some photos today and will post them tomorrow.

I have looked quite closely at the works, they do appear to be genuine. I don't think I really doubted this beyond the doubt planted there by the boxes. But the boxes were so poorly done, that if they were knockoffs sold by this seller, I think it might also be obvious.

My original point remains my primary focus ... the boxes and the gross misrepresentation. I remain 99.9% certain of the genuine nature of the actual works. I am 100% certain the boxes are knockoffs and are a flimsy attempt to increase sales and increase profit by the seller ... who still has not replied to my message.

He is making my next courses of action pretty simple. :roll:

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Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval

by kymidwife » Jul 25th, '10, 15:28

Mr. Miyagi say, "Best way not be disappointed: buy pot, not name."

Better Business Bureau say, "Best way not to commit sales fraud: be able to back up what you sell, and don't blatantly mislead a customer."

I'm not that into boxes as a rule... I sort of like them, but I'd buy a nice cup that I really loved with or without a box. In this case, the vendor would be better off to have sold the cups as what they are, and not tried to milk his customers for extra $$.

Frankly, I am disgusted. I don't care if the cups are genuine. I don't care if they were a great bargain. Knowing these shady sales practices, I wouldn't give that vendor one red cent of my hard-earned money, ever. Someone who is this deceitful does not deserve to see his business thrive, and he can sell his cups for a dollar each and I wouldn't buy a single one. If I had one, I'd never take a single sip from the cup without thinking of where it came from, and the crook who's spending my money to make more counterfeit boxes. :evil:

End of rant. :)

Sarah

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Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval

by Victoria » Jul 25th, '10, 20:09

In theory I totally agree. But this is not a brick and mortar store. Nor a trusted online vendor. This is eBay. We go to eBay searching for a bargain. Also true, we go to eBay with certain reasonable expectations. Still we should never loose site of the fact it is eBay. I have been on eBay as a seller and a buyer for over 11 years now. Whenever you purchase from ebay there is some risk, you weigh that risk based on the price you are paying and seller feedback. This being a new seller with a feedback of under 10, maybe even under 5 at the time, there is a larger risk. Whenever buying on eBay you must always read and reread descriptions searching not only what is said but what is not said.

It is unfortunate for Chip, but Chip's negative experience and negative feedback will serve as a warning to others to take a closer look.

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Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval

by britt » Jul 26th, '10, 10:44

Claiming this box is a certificate authenticating the work implies it comes from the artist. If not, anyone can authenticate any artist's work by just slapping it in an unofficial box and stamping it with a shoddy seal. IMO this is not authentication. I do not agree, if this is the case, that the seller has freed himself from legal liability by his sly wording in the product description. This appears to be an obvious attempt to deceive the customer.

I find the issue of wood boxes to be very confusing. There are artist-signed boxes, distributor supplied boxes, and who knows what else. I have seen the same products from the same artist shown by two different vendors in noticeably different boxes, and both vendors are well-known and reputable.

Some Somayaki items are supplied in the US in wooden boxes. A very reputable Japanese vendor who has direct contact with the kiln said these items do not come in wooden boxes, so the distributor must be supplying them. He did not say there was anything wrong with this. In fact, when I ordered one of these items from him, he supplied a complementary wooden box. The difference between him and the Ebay seller is he didn't misrepresent what I was purchasing.

I've seen some very well-known and trusted vendors who use different language in their product descriptions, sometimes stating "comes in wooden box" and other times "comes in artist-signed wooden box." This could be just an error in the clarity of the posting but it could also mean excactly what it says; some boxes supplied are not signed by the artist so may be of little value other than to make the package more attractive visually.

Although I have been suspicious of the wooden-box thing for a while now, I never really paid enough attention except when purchasing higher-priced items, where I usually only purchase from sites like 2000 Cranes who are very specific about this.

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Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval

by JBaymore » Jul 26th, '10, 12:22

The boxes for Japanese pots can vary all over the place. To lay out the general scenario.......

There can be no box at all.

The box can be of cardboard and have a printed label with typeset type.

The box can be of cardboard and have a caligraphic looking but printed label.

The box can be of very inexpensive wood construction and have no labeling at all.

The box can be of inexpensive construction and have black caligraphic writing on it and a red stamp (or two). This writing could be done by a distributor, the vendor, or the artist.

The box can be of good quality construction and have black caligraphic writing on it and a red stamp (or two). This writing could be done by a distributor, the vendor, or the artist.

The box can be of good quality construction and have black caligraphic writing on it and a red stamp (or two). This writing is done by the artist or someone on his/her staff designated by the artist to do so.

The box can be of both superior quality wood and construction and have black caligraphic writing on it and a red stamp (or two). This writing is done by the artist.

You can put in there some other permutaions of this idea... but that is the general "heiarchy" of things. In larger operations sometimes the caligraphy on the boxes for the lower bracket works is done by the deshi or shokunin or office workers. Maybe the master potter only affixes the hanko. For lower priced works, sometimes there is an extra charge for adding the "artist signed box", due to the time and costs involved on a piece that does not carry support for that in the original price.

Generally speaking, the "increasing" heiarchy above goes hand-in-hand with increasing price for the work. One way to potentially jack up the percieved value for a piece is to add in a wooden box to it. Wooden boxes are traditionally reserved for the "better", more valuable pieces.

"Run-of-kiln" production type pieces don't typically get sold with signed wooden boxes. Vendors will often add these with "post production" (not done by the kiln....done by the vendor) boxes that bear a caligraphic description of what is in the box ....ie. ぐいのみ....., and the kiln location name....sometimes using a red stamp for this. To someone who cannot read Nihongo (Japanese) it can LOOK like an artist signed box... but it is not. And it is not intended to; these boxes are made for the Japanese market... and it is expected that the person purchasing the piece (with box) reads Nihongo.

Signed wooden boxes are usually reserved for the more one-of-a-kind or the exhibition works, that almost always have involved the hand of the master potter in a significant part of the genesis of the piece.

Sometimes a box is done for a specific piece by someone other than the artist, typically after his/her death. This is typically reserved for famous artists and pieces. This person creating the box might be a former deshi of the artist if they are successful enough, the potter son of that artist, or a noted expert in the field of Japanese ceramics like maybe a museum curator. And the box will bear the fact of how it was created.

Each potter makes a personal decision about at what quality and price point level his/her work routinely warrants such boxes included with the pieces. Lesser known artists likely will do this for works at a price point that someone like a Matsuzaki Ken (look him up... he's great) would not consider.

To REALLY know if the pot is the real thing from the artist you think it is, and that BOX the pot is in is the real thing from the artist you think it is, requires either depending on the trust in a good reputable dealer or agent, or knowing both the artist's work and (reading) the artists' caligraphy and personal hanko (stamp) very, very well. Lots of study and practice.

And as we've seen here.... sometimes the boxes look SO bad.... that you don't really need to be an "expert" to detect something is wrong. :wink: :roll:

best,

..................john


PS: I already told Chip this ... but I wrote (in Japanese) the the guy on Ebay asking if another "Seigan" piece he has listed comes with a box SIGNED BY Seigan. No answer so far :wink: .

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Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval

by Mrs. Chip » Jul 26th, '10, 12:38

JBaymore wrote: PS: I already told Chip this ... but I wrote (in Japanese) the the guy on Ebay asking if another "Seigan" piece he has listed comes with a box SIGNED BY Seigan. No answer so far :wink: .
Believe it or not :wink:, this does not surprise me! :idea:

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Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval

by AdamMY » Jul 26th, '10, 12:51

John,

Once again a truly tremendous post. Your knowledge of Japanese Ceramics, and willingness to pass on the knowledge has helped many of us Non Japanese speakers understand just a little bit more of the Widespread world of Japanese Ceramics.

Thank you for the time you've spent writing these posts and educating us.

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Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval

by Abracadaver! » Jul 26th, '10, 16:05

Based on the boxes alone, I really wouldn't bother with this seller. The box quality is so beyond sloppy that that raises so many warning bells, authentic pieces or no, and to continue to purchase from this seller is just to facilitate his shady business practices. What incentive is there to stop or improve things if people keep buying from him looking for a deal? The only repercussions that he has to fear is getting this username banned on eBay. It's too small-fry for there to be any legal risk for him.

There was a rush of boxless "authentic Seigan chawan" on eBay a year or two ago, and it seemed a bit fishy then. I wonder if this isn't from the same "source." A stupid question, but did you check the shipping box to see that these pieces were actually shipped from Japan?

On another note, the vast majority of Shibuya Deishi's work on eBay these days come in wooden storage boxes with calligraphy that is stamped or printed on the box, and not hand written, which the seller is also carefully avoiding clearly stating in his wording (n.b. I'm not making a dig at a certain "friend of the TC," just an observation. I'll still make purchases from him with confidence any time). I've noticed that Seigan is doing this with some of his more mass produced work as well (see http://www.zencha.net/photo/23962-01.jpg and here http://www.zencha.net/photo/23967-01.jpg for comparison) and I would expect to see something like these on eBay from Seigan before these dodgy boxes.

If you are happy with the pieces that you've gotten from this seller, than that's all that matters, but I wouldn't be comfortable with the authenticity or quality of pieces from a seller willing to go to such incredibly half-assed measures to "authenticate" the work.
Last edited by Abracadaver! on Jul 26th, '10, 17:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval

by Abracadaver! » Jul 26th, '10, 16:09

John, I should have read your post a little more carefully. I think you clearly state what must be happening with the Deishi boxes here:
JBaymore wrote: "Run-of-kiln" production type pieces don't typically get sold with signed wooden boxes. Vendors will often add these with "post production" (not done by the kiln....done by the vendor) boxes that bear a caligraphic description of what is in the box ....ie. ぐいのみ....., and the kiln location name....sometimes using a red stamp for this. To someone who cannot read Nihongo (Japanese) it can LOOK like an artist signed box... but it is not. And it is not intended to; these boxes are made for the Japanese market... and it is expected that the person purchasing the piece (with box) reads Nihongo.
How funny...I hadn't thought of this being something done on the vendor's end, but it seems logical.

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Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval

by David R. » Jul 26th, '10, 17:51

Hi everyone,

Concerning this vendor, I have heard that he buys the boxes and does the artist seal by himself, which is not the case with other vendors.

I like traditional boxes a lot and what I can see in this post does not look good at all... Moreover, it leaves the door wide open to possible fraud.

For myself, I would not tempt the devil and remain faithful to the one vendor I have, whom I have learned to trust. I know he won't try to pull a fast one on me...

++

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Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval

by Chip » Jul 26th, '10, 22:10

Thanks everyone for your comments! Much appreciated.

Crazy, not a peep from this seller in response to my message. After this long, I am guessing it is not going to happen. I think I scared him ... 8)

Has he not heard of "feedback" ...

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Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval

by rdl » Jul 27th, '10, 00:41

Abracadaver! wrote: On another note, the vast majority of Shibuya Deishi's work on eBay these days come in wooden storage boxes with calligraphy that is stamped or printed on the box, and not hand written
i have purchased several pieces of deishi's work from shibuya deishi himself, at his studio in hagi. they are all nice pieces but not his most expensive work, and all the boxes directly from his studio were stamped and not hand written calligraphy. i don't know about the boxes for his very valuable pieces nor the japanese tradition of using a stamp rather than hand written calligraphy, and i have a few guesses as to why deishi does this, but that's the way the boxed piece leaves his studio.

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Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval

by Ambrose » Jul 27th, '10, 08:25

kymidwife wrote:Mr. Miyagi say, "Best way not be disappointed: buy pot, not name."

Better Business Bureau say, "Best way not to commit sales fraud: be able to back up what you sell, and don't blatantly mislead a customer."

I'm not that into boxes as a rule... I sort of like them, but I'd buy a nice cup that I really loved with or without a box. In this case, the vendor would be better off to have sold the cups as what they are, and not tried to milk his customers for extra $$.

Frankly, I am disgusted. I don't care if the cups are genuine. I don't care if they were a great bargain. Knowing these shady sales practices, I wouldn't give that vendor one red cent of my hard-earned money, ever. Someone who is this deceitful does not deserve to see his business thrive, and he can sell his cups for a dollar each and I wouldn't buy a single one. If I had one, I'd never take a single sip from the cup without thinking of where it came from, and the crook who's spending my money to make more counterfeit boxes. :evil:

End of rant. :)

Sarah
Well said

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Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval

by JBaymore » Jul 27th, '10, 09:18

AdamMY wrote:John,

Once again a truly tremendous post. Your knowledge of Japanese Ceramics, and willingness to pass on the knowledge has helped many of us Non Japanese speakers understand just a little bit more of the Widespread world of Japanese Ceramics.

Thank you for the time you've spent writing these posts and educating us.

You are most welcome, Adam. Thanks for the "thanks". :wink:

best,

..........john

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