Aug 27th, '10, 00:38
Posts: 20891
Joined: Apr 22nd, '06, 20:52
Scrolling: scrolling
Location: Back in the TeaCave atop Mt. Fuji
Aug 27th, '10, 09:21
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sep 15th, '09, 16:11
Location: Wilton, New Hampshire USA
Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval
Stay tuned for the next chapert in..........Chip wrote:... and there is more.
"As the Teabowl Turns."
Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval
Sorry for all of your headaches... but this is some great, entertaining reading.
Aug 27th, '10, 12:16
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sep 15th, '09, 16:11
Location: Wilton, New Hampshire USA
Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval
Chesslover wrote:And they "explain" the smeared caliography:
"And maybe due to lack of knowledge about Japanese traditional callgraphical ink, it will smear if you touch the point. Traditional old fashioned black ink (geniune)is different industrial printing ink, powdered graines still remains on the surface. If you touch it, it will smears other part, then, in most cases, after purchasing, they cover the box like this and be careful about the point, never touch it."
I have about 100 signed boxes from Japanese pots sitting about 20 feet from where I am writing this. NONE are smudged, and none are easily smudgeable. Sumi ink certainly IS different from "industrial" ink.... but once it is dried it is pretty darn hard to get it to smear like what is seen in the images we've seen here.
I just took a chance on a box from a friend of mine's pots in the "interests of science". I tried deliberately to smudge one of the darkest areas of sumi with my finger. I repeatedly rubbed the spot of the ink back and forth letting my finger go from the inked area onto un-inked wood. After repeated hard rubbing there was BARELY a discernable TRACE of sumi getting on the bare wood. And I was trying hard to get this to happen. It was so slight that anyone not knowing exactly where to look for what I did would not notice it.
best,
.............john
Aug 27th, '10, 13:04
Posts: 20891
Joined: Apr 22nd, '06, 20:52
Scrolling: scrolling
Location: Back in the TeaCave atop Mt. Fuji
Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval
Right John, and as I mentioned, this seller sent from 2 different artisans, both had the smearing smudging ink all over the boxes.
Aug 27th, '10, 15:04
Posts: 1796
Joined: Sep 15th, '09, 16:11
Location: Wilton, New Hampshire USA
Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval
Some of the stuff that possibly factors into this whole discussion is the genesis of the pieces themselves. The sourcing, within the source, so to speak. As Chip mentioned....... some of this likely revolves around a re-seller buying the lower to lowest quality work from a kiln and then trying to make it look better by the "packaging" and marketing of that stuff. And possibly by using overtly misleading (at best) written information.
I do not know the actual nature of the particular kiln or kilns in question here, but TYPICALLY there can be many levels of the quality of the work coming from the same artist / kiln.
All of us who work with clay are aware that some of our work is truly a synergistic "peak" confluence of all of our skills with the total blessings of the Kamisama (kiln god). We rejoice when this happens. And that some of our work comes out simply "OK". Decent. And yes...... some heads directly for the shard pile....(do not pass "go", do not collect $200).
I have a yunomi from the kiln-run production of a specific Japanese artist's "kiln" that is valued at about $50-60. It was likely made and glazed by a deshi (apprentice). Decent piece, actually. I also have an exhibition quality one that is valued at about $1000. It was totally made by the kamamoto ("master") of the kin. Stunning piece. Both pieces are considered the artist's pieces.
So the making of an object at a "kiln" can vary from pieces that are made as the "bread and butter", run-of-kiln, low priced, volume sales work....... to the rarer pieces that when they come out of the kiln are spirited away for the serious collectors, or for major exhibitions, or for museum collections. Typically in Japan, the prices for the work will reflect the artist's assessment of the quality of the work.
It all comes down to the "quality control" aspect at this point. What is allowed to get out into the market.
In a sense for Westerners looking at this stuff...... you can maybe think of "Calvin Klein" blue jeans.
If you buy a pair of jeans that have a "Calvin Klein" signature embroidered on them for $100, you likely are not expecting that the particular pair of jeans was hand cut and hand stitched by Calvin. You also are likely not expecting that the signature embroidery was done by Calvin. But these jeans were produced under the auspicies that Calvin Klein has decided to place on the production of the "production -run" blue jeans. So they are "authentic" Calvin Klein jeans.
When you get the pair of blue jeans that costs $100,000, that fit "just so", and the signature on the back seems to be hand written in black ink painted onto the fabric, you are probably looking at a limited edition, carefully crafted, hand done piece that Calvin made specifically for a runway model to wear in a fashion show. These too are authentic Calvin Klein jeans.
There are certainly many exceptions, but in my experinces around Japan, chawan that are pricing out at less than about 15000 円 to 20000 円 ($150-200 in very round numbers) are mainly the run-of-kiln type works. Good chawan tend to run just below to well over the thousand dollar and up range. REALLY good chawan by well known famous artists usually require mortgages .
Again, it can vary a bit, but you can get a plain wooden box sized for a chawan in Japan for about 500-800 円 ($5-8). Add a five dollar box and a one dollar ribbon to a production run (wholesale) $25 chawan, and then with the right carefully crafted wording on the ads....... bring the percieved value of the pieces up to feeling more like a this is a chawan percieved by the artist to be in the $100 or $200 chawan range. Then sell it at a price looking like a "bargain". Thereby doubling (or more) the profit made from selling the piece.
Again ultimately it comes back to what Lee (togeika) said I think in this thread........ it is about the pot... not the pedigree. If you like the piece, then that is all that matters to you. (Unless you are buying it for investment / resale value.)
The place it "goes wrong" here is in the potential "misrepresentation for profit" aspects of this particular case.
best,
............john
I do not know the actual nature of the particular kiln or kilns in question here, but TYPICALLY there can be many levels of the quality of the work coming from the same artist / kiln.
All of us who work with clay are aware that some of our work is truly a synergistic "peak" confluence of all of our skills with the total blessings of the Kamisama (kiln god). We rejoice when this happens. And that some of our work comes out simply "OK". Decent. And yes...... some heads directly for the shard pile....(do not pass "go", do not collect $200).
I have a yunomi from the kiln-run production of a specific Japanese artist's "kiln" that is valued at about $50-60. It was likely made and glazed by a deshi (apprentice). Decent piece, actually. I also have an exhibition quality one that is valued at about $1000. It was totally made by the kamamoto ("master") of the kin. Stunning piece. Both pieces are considered the artist's pieces.
So the making of an object at a "kiln" can vary from pieces that are made as the "bread and butter", run-of-kiln, low priced, volume sales work....... to the rarer pieces that when they come out of the kiln are spirited away for the serious collectors, or for major exhibitions, or for museum collections. Typically in Japan, the prices for the work will reflect the artist's assessment of the quality of the work.
It all comes down to the "quality control" aspect at this point. What is allowed to get out into the market.
In a sense for Westerners looking at this stuff...... you can maybe think of "Calvin Klein" blue jeans.
If you buy a pair of jeans that have a "Calvin Klein" signature embroidered on them for $100, you likely are not expecting that the particular pair of jeans was hand cut and hand stitched by Calvin. You also are likely not expecting that the signature embroidery was done by Calvin. But these jeans were produced under the auspicies that Calvin Klein has decided to place on the production of the "production -run" blue jeans. So they are "authentic" Calvin Klein jeans.
When you get the pair of blue jeans that costs $100,000, that fit "just so", and the signature on the back seems to be hand written in black ink painted onto the fabric, you are probably looking at a limited edition, carefully crafted, hand done piece that Calvin made specifically for a runway model to wear in a fashion show. These too are authentic Calvin Klein jeans.
There are certainly many exceptions, but in my experinces around Japan, chawan that are pricing out at less than about 15000 円 to 20000 円 ($150-200 in very round numbers) are mainly the run-of-kiln type works. Good chawan tend to run just below to well over the thousand dollar and up range. REALLY good chawan by well known famous artists usually require mortgages
. Again, it can vary a bit, but you can get a plain wooden box sized for a chawan in Japan for about 500-800 円 ($5-8). Add a five dollar box and a one dollar ribbon to a production run (wholesale) $25 chawan, and then with the right carefully crafted wording on the ads....... bring the percieved value of the pieces up to feeling more like a this is a chawan percieved by the artist to be in the $100 or $200 chawan range. Then sell it at a price looking like a "bargain". Thereby doubling (or more) the profit made from selling the piece.
Again ultimately it comes back to what Lee (togeika) said I think in this thread........ it is about the pot... not the pedigree. If you like the piece, then that is all that matters to you. (Unless you are buying it for investment / resale value.)
The place it "goes wrong" here is in the potential "misrepresentation for profit" aspects of this particular case.
best,
............john
Aug 17th, '11, 17:44
Posts: 20891
Joined: Apr 22nd, '06, 20:52
Scrolling: scrolling
Location: Back in the TeaCave atop Mt. Fuji
Re: Hagi, presented for your disapproval
Shucks, this seller has has not had any products for quite some time and sales fell really flat.
The more I know, the less I like this seller ... complete BSer ... top to bottom. I am a live and let live kinda guy, but I can only hope that my feedbacks (and Chesslover's) had some effect ... impact.
The more I know, the less I like this seller ... complete BSer ... top to bottom. I am a live and let live kinda guy, but I can only hope that my feedbacks (and Chesslover's) had some effect ... impact.