No tradition...

[spot52]

I like the fourth of July. We always have a cook out and go to watch fireworks. The menu is almost always Hamburgers, Hotdogs, and Brats. There is also a parade that we always try to go to. Would anyone consider fireworks on the fourth a tradition?

[Chip]

How about a nice cup of hot tea, a TeaChat tradition for chillin' discussions.

Mod hat on, I have been concerned about this topic since day one, but have allowed it to progress to this point.

... since this discussion has pretty much reached its destination and then some, and before it gets too intense or out of hand, I would suggest participants walk away.

Once a TeaChat non tea discussion reaches the point by point stage, it is usually all downhill.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation and understanding,
Chip
Tea drinker who happens to Moderate.

[depravitea]

All we're doing is tearing apart what the other person is saying.
This is it, I'll try to keep it from dragging on.
I didn't feel there were very many American Traditions.
I was disappointed with this.
I wanted to find something, and I did.
If I said NO traditions, I apologize. I was generalizing, and I should have prefaced it with "In my personal experience..."
If I made comparisons that offended anyone, I apologize, but without being able to compare any situation to another you'll never know what's different/better/worse.
If I said a family-specific tradition was unimportant to an outsider I meant it was unimportant to them because they could not participate in it.
Sports probably is a tradition, though I wish it wasn't.
I don't know what else to say.
I feel like I have to defend myself for having opinions and ideas.
I appreciate all the input, and my opinion has changed a bit on certain aspects of this subject, though overall it has not.
I will look at traditions, mainly from Europe and Asia, mainly concerning food and tea, and possibly start some family traditions of my own - which is my only recourse.



Sorry Chip, I guess I typed a response before reading on to the end of the thread.

[entropyembrace]

Cinco De Mayo is a very popular American Tradition as well. (I am sort of kidding)

It's definitely not a Mexican tradition!

Cinco De Mayo everyone in Mexico is working just like any other day, no holiday and hardly any parties.

My gf was born in Mexico, so yeah I know.

[scruffmcgruff]

I've said all I wanted to say (well... mostly), so I'll drop it. This is one of the few topics I don't feel ashamed to take too seriously, though, unlike most of the other arguments I've gotten into on TeaChat. I just hope no bored sociology/anthropology majors stumble across this thread...

[xuancheng]

I guess this is not the place for such a discussion.

I just find discussing American culture very interesting because I just finished up another semester of teaching an American culture course to university students in China. I'm not sure if they learned anything, but I sure did.

[Intuit]

Deleted.

[Intuit]

Deleted.

[scruffmcgruff]

Well, I was done, until these two short essays popped up.

Seeking long lost "ethnic identity" is pure bullsh*t. It is important to maintain ethnic identity in some cultures, but there is little use in "rediscovering" it in modern America. Except in rare cases where specific needs (e.g. genetic traits, diseases, proclivities) necessitate knowledge of ancestors, I would argue that there is absolutely no need or benefit for reestablishing ethnic identity other than satisfying our misplaced and fallacious lust for nostalgia. Origin and essence are NOT THE SAME-- in this case, I mean that knowing why your ancestors did something has nothing to do with why you do something. Also see the genetic fallacy; just because you can make the connection doesn't mean it is causal.

I would like to make an anecdotal point. I am adopted, and just recently (about a year ago, I am 22) developed significant relationships with my biological family. This has certainly been interesting, and I have learned that many of my traits (which I never thought to be genetic) may be inherited to a degree. However, does this change anything? Not really. I don't understand myself any better now that I know I get some aspect of trait A from my biological mother, as I have had trait A for my entire life. It is entirely possible that I could be misinterpreting the origin of some of my traits too; for all I know it is pure coincidence that my mother and I share trait A. Basically I am saying there is no need to have knowledge of our ancestry in order to understand ourselves.

Of course, I'm not saying we should do away with these traditions-- that would be a true shame-- just that it is totally fallacious to think an Irish-American is more entitled to practicing Irish traditions than a Chinese-American is.

The point regarding marriage failure has nothing to do with differences in historical ethnic identity (I doubt Visigoth dining etiquette has any effect on modern marital relations), only differences in extant ethnic identity. It's odd that you seem to be arguing for ethnic uniformity in this point, as this seems contrary to the rest of your argument.

It's also silly to think that America is the first nation to push for cultural uniformity (indeed, one could argue that we designed our system of unique yet united states precisely to avoid this problem, though admittedly federalism has crumbled in recent history). Uniformity is, as has been mentioned here, a useful mechanism for social security in tough times. Also, well-established traditions are well-established because other competing traditions were deliberately snuffed out (there is a reason there are several Romantic languages). Obviously those are no longer extant, so we don't see how uniform other nations have become. In America's case, we still allow and support the practice of alternative traditions (which is quite progressive in the grand scheme of things) so we can see the assimilation process more clearly.

I've already made my point about value judgments when it comes to traditions, and if nobody has listened yet I doubt they will if I repeat myself.

While I personally lament the degradation of family life in this nation (an admitted value judgment), I wonder if it is not somehow related to the sense of individualism supported in America. I agree that it probably does lead to social dysfunction if left unchecked, which it certainly has been in many families, but there are many obvious benefits of individualism (freedom of religion/tradition, entrepreneurship, etc.) as well. A double-edged sword, in my opinion.

[Intuit]

Short enough?

[scruffmcgruff]

That was an interesting (if not painfully long-winded and poorly written, sorry to break it to you) response, unfortunately it was almost entirely responding to a claim I didn't make.

Cultural practices and their maintainance aren't bullsh*t at all.

I never said this. I actually stated the opposite, that maintaining ethnic identity is often important, and that it would be a shame to lose relevant culture/traditions.

Seeking long lost "ethnic identity" is pure bullsh*t. It is important to maintain ethnic identity in some cultures, but there is little use in "rediscovering" it in modern America.

Quite different; I think this is pretty obvious. You did later bring up how some ethnically-specific problems can pop up in a homogenized society like America though, so I'll address that.

What's more interesting with a similar underlying theme, is the pattern of relatively newly emerged chronic disease, like some forms of cancer and type 2 diabetes.

It's a GLORIOUS connection, and it's very much tied to gene expression and cultural cueing from foods and lifestyle practices, imprinted by thousands of years of proscribed human behaviors.

This is a good point, one I hadn't considered. But how is this even applicable, without individualized genetic analysis, to the huge number of Americans who are a mixture of ethnicities (which, as you pointed, out is rapidly growing)? How does the Scot/Frenchman know whether to eat Haggis or Foie Gras to minimize his chance of developing disease? For all the theoretical importance it may hold, practically-speaking it is a moot point for many.

It's not just food that is important here, its oral history and tradition of cultural ethics and morals that are passed down, and form the basis of acceptable behavior, by storied examples, that also have been passed down through hundreds to thousands of generations. They condition individuals towards gender role, expectations of family, mate and clan roles and behaviors and they are critical for functioning families and a healthy - and largely self policing - community.

While I concede that some dietary/climatic leanings are inheritable, I find it difficult to see the connection between one's biology and a set of values from which one may be completely divorced in modern America. These are such complex issues that they cannot be entirely dictated by genetics. I don't doubt that there is some inheritable component to behavior, but I think it is quite obvious that there are enough behavioral differences within an ethnic group to make comparisons between groups statistically insignificant (ceteris paribus). As long as there is a functioning set of cultural rules to replace the supposedly ethnically-correct set, I believe an individual is more than capable of adapting sufficiently.

[beachape]

The food/culture/disease thing sounds neat, but way too many confounders. Second generation immigrants in America have been shown to have much worse health outcomes than their parents. Could be lots of things- food, environment etc. Some people think that racism and associated stress hormones can even be a part of it.

Giving up your "native" diet for another healthy diet won't kill you. Take anyone and drown them in hamburgers, ice cream, automobiles, elevators...that will kill you.

[Intuit]

Deleted.

[scruffmcgruff]

Holy crap. Look, if saying "you win" gets me out of reading all that, you win. If you want a real response, try distilling that down to a few paragraphs instead of a few pages.