Aug 19th, '09, 19:34
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silverneedles
Tree age and flavor?
i havent read on how trees grow etc, but even if a tree is 1000 years old, dont each new leaves grow with nutrients that are absorbed right then in those days/weeks when the leaf grows ? how does tree age affect flavor and leaf components?
Re: Tree age and flavor?
Silverneedles I thought you were a puerh drinker. Old treas are touted as far superior in puerh tea all the time. I imagine its true with just about all teas, as Old tree Longjing is probably considered something special, as well as Old Tree Bai Mu Dan.
Though I don't know enough about biology of plants to be able to give any good reason.
Though I don't know enough about biology of plants to be able to give any good reason.
Aug 19th, '09, 20:50
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Herb_Master
Re: Tree age and flavor?
Young trees hav a less well developed root structure and grow quickly by extracting all their moisture and nutrients from the top soil.
Old trees develop rootsystems which penetrate the bedrock, in some instances of old trees and vines the underlying root system can be 30 feet or more.
Often an old tree will get very little of it's substenance from the top soil, it may not be as vigorous a leaf producer as a young tree which is still trying to concentrate it's endeavours on growth, but (in the case of the vine, it's fruit) will have a superior accumulation of polyphenols and the like (needed for good tea production) in it's leaves..
Old trees develop rootsystems which penetrate the bedrock, in some instances of old trees and vines the underlying root system can be 30 feet or more.
Often an old tree will get very little of it's substenance from the top soil, it may not be as vigorous a leaf producer as a young tree which is still trying to concentrate it's endeavours on growth, but (in the case of the vine, it's fruit) will have a superior accumulation of polyphenols and the like (needed for good tea production) in it's leaves..
Re: Tree age and flavor?
Older trees seem to produce tea with clearer, more pronounced flavors and aromas. An analogy would be drinking the younger tree you're listening to beautiful music on the other side of a wall and the old tree you're sitting relaxed in the middle of a surround sound system listening to the same music.
That's what I've 'seen' from the rare cases that I've been able to drink the same type of tea from different aged trees.
That's what I've 'seen' from the rare cases that I've been able to drink the same type of tea from different aged trees.
Aug 20th, '09, 01:19
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Re: Tree age and flavor?
Why wouldn't it make a difference? Just because the leaves are new, doesn't mean that the leaves aren't being created from 1000 yr old systems.
I think that herb_master's reply is probably the best explanation, but consider the fact that our skin and hair are constantly being re-grown and renewed, but the skin and hair, despite always being new, will be quite different at different stages in life. I guess trees don't grow old and decrepit the same way that we do, but the systems involved in absorbing nutrients, distributing them, and growing leaves will all be much more robust and mature (as herb_master pointed out).
Lets also not forget that these old trees are actually trees, often massive, as opposed to plantation bushes that are kept short (and still take some years to start producing tea-worthy leaves). These old trees produce visibly different leaves. Plants also depend on symbiotic relationships with microorganisms for absorbtion of nutrients in the root system. So in addition to having bigger and deeper roots, the roots will also have much more well established colonies of those microorganisms.
I think that herb_master's reply is probably the best explanation, but consider the fact that our skin and hair are constantly being re-grown and renewed, but the skin and hair, despite always being new, will be quite different at different stages in life. I guess trees don't grow old and decrepit the same way that we do, but the systems involved in absorbing nutrients, distributing them, and growing leaves will all be much more robust and mature (as herb_master pointed out).
Lets also not forget that these old trees are actually trees, often massive, as opposed to plantation bushes that are kept short (and still take some years to start producing tea-worthy leaves). These old trees produce visibly different leaves. Plants also depend on symbiotic relationships with microorganisms for absorbtion of nutrients in the root system. So in addition to having bigger and deeper roots, the roots will also have much more well established colonies of those microorganisms.
Re: Tree age and flavor?
I've read that at your typical tea farm- the bushes get uprooted and replanted every 5 years. I'm not sure if this is true or not, so take what I have read with a grain of salt. If that's the case- then the overwhelming majority of the stuff we drink is from very young plants.
Re: Tree age and flavor?
Actually, it's not old vines, but old rootstock, that makes for vino excellence. Comments made about root mass as a function of age being an important variable are absolutely correct.
The best wines and teas tend to grow in rocky, highly weathered and well-drained soils. The four environmental characteristics that define fine wine grapes (and tea shrubs) are: soil, bedrock, climate, and topography. The rootstock has to 'match' the soils and bedrock (bedrock lithography determines soil and soluble mineral content in surface and surficial groundwater supply to root-zone). The Geology of Fine Wines has an interesting discussion of the 'geological islands' that explains the tremendous soil/bedrock variation of the US West Coast. This is also true for the otherside of the Pacific 'Fire Rim', coastal SE Asia and Asia (Assam/Darjeeling where the Indian plate abuts the Tibetan Plateau) .
http://research.calacademy.org/calwild/ ... wines.html
In mature tree and shrub plants, the rootzone (rhizosphere) is very large and well-developed with respect to volume and attached microbiota. These microbial communities provide enzymes, cofactors and micro-nutrients to plants that wouldn't otherwise be available.
For both wine and tea plants, young (less than 15-20 years) plants display *highly variable* gene expression (as do all organisms as they progress from immature growth to mature developmental states) as the root zone and attached microbial communities co-develop. The root-zone community is highly specialized and goes through 'successional' stages, where the species composition varies with changing conditions induced by maturing rootzone and minerals 'mined' and made available to the plant by microbes.
Older plants with mature root zone have more stable gene expression, and that affords a more 'reproducible' product when adjustments are made in leaf (and grape) processing for climate variation.
I had to think about this when pondering comments made by a old and seasoned Taiwan tea plantation farmer, in the Floating Leaves blog. He scoffed at the new Anxi hybrids (planted within the past 10-15 years) over the traditional local variety (large leaved, soft stemmed). The former are more disease resistant than the latter and may well be a better match than the older variety - but they are, as yet, immature plants.
'Old is better' has some truth to it, especially since very long lived plants (hundreds of years or more) have obviously well-adapted rootzones that help them resist climate variation and pathogen invasion. The rootzone 'bugs' can and do produce plant protective compounds that the plant can take up into the leaves - some of these constitute unusual complex flavors of mature grapes and tea leaves.
More importantly, the critical flavor components are comprised of antioxidants (highly reducing compounds) produced in large quantity in mature roots and exported to fruit and new buds, because the environment tends to be highly oxidizing.
OP, this was a GREAT question, based on an excellent analogy.
The best wines and teas tend to grow in rocky, highly weathered and well-drained soils. The four environmental characteristics that define fine wine grapes (and tea shrubs) are: soil, bedrock, climate, and topography. The rootstock has to 'match' the soils and bedrock (bedrock lithography determines soil and soluble mineral content in surface and surficial groundwater supply to root-zone). The Geology of Fine Wines has an interesting discussion of the 'geological islands' that explains the tremendous soil/bedrock variation of the US West Coast. This is also true for the otherside of the Pacific 'Fire Rim', coastal SE Asia and Asia (Assam/Darjeeling where the Indian plate abuts the Tibetan Plateau) .
http://research.calacademy.org/calwild/ ... wines.html
In mature tree and shrub plants, the rootzone (rhizosphere) is very large and well-developed with respect to volume and attached microbiota. These microbial communities provide enzymes, cofactors and micro-nutrients to plants that wouldn't otherwise be available.
For both wine and tea plants, young (less than 15-20 years) plants display *highly variable* gene expression (as do all organisms as they progress from immature growth to mature developmental states) as the root zone and attached microbial communities co-develop. The root-zone community is highly specialized and goes through 'successional' stages, where the species composition varies with changing conditions induced by maturing rootzone and minerals 'mined' and made available to the plant by microbes.
Older plants with mature root zone have more stable gene expression, and that affords a more 'reproducible' product when adjustments are made in leaf (and grape) processing for climate variation.
I had to think about this when pondering comments made by a old and seasoned Taiwan tea plantation farmer, in the Floating Leaves blog. He scoffed at the new Anxi hybrids (planted within the past 10-15 years) over the traditional local variety (large leaved, soft stemmed). The former are more disease resistant than the latter and may well be a better match than the older variety - but they are, as yet, immature plants.
'Old is better' has some truth to it, especially since very long lived plants (hundreds of years or more) have obviously well-adapted rootzones that help them resist climate variation and pathogen invasion. The rootzone 'bugs' can and do produce plant protective compounds that the plant can take up into the leaves - some of these constitute unusual complex flavors of mature grapes and tea leaves.
More importantly, the critical flavor components are comprised of antioxidants (highly reducing compounds) produced in large quantity in mature roots and exported to fruit and new buds, because the environment tends to be highly oxidizing.
OP, this was a GREAT question, based on an excellent analogy.
Re: Tree age and flavor?
While they don't seem to have exactly the same tree, there is a flight of tree ages @Teahabitat.
I may try it tomorrow and report. As far as the wine analogy, I'm going to have to say it's a poor apples and oranges comparison. Though tongue N cheeky, I did have an single tree oolong @TH which had an orange rind kind of aroma and flavor... 100% from that particular tree, no artificial, or additives to give it that 'orangy' flavor!
Winemaking & vineyard management is more complex that some of the prior posts would have you believe, and I don't even subscribe to the validity of many of those points. Being a old, mature, seasoned wine aficionado with some amateur winemaking experience too (we make a top quality wine from a top quality Central Coast source)...it's a complex and contentious topic for a wine forum, not here. Clonal selection, not rootstock is probably the most important determinator, can't do anything with a lousy clone or variety, will never make 'great' wine, no matter all the other factors.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/D ... lights.jpg
I may try it tomorrow and report. As far as the wine analogy, I'm going to have to say it's a poor apples and oranges comparison. Though tongue N cheeky, I did have an single tree oolong @TH which had an orange rind kind of aroma and flavor... 100% from that particular tree, no artificial, or additives to give it that 'orangy' flavor!
Winemaking & vineyard management is more complex that some of the prior posts would have you believe, and I don't even subscribe to the validity of many of those points. Being a old, mature, seasoned wine aficionado with some amateur winemaking experience too (we make a top quality wine from a top quality Central Coast source)...it's a complex and contentious topic for a wine forum, not here. Clonal selection, not rootstock is probably the most important determinator, can't do anything with a lousy clone or variety, will never make 'great' wine, no matter all the other factors.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/D ... lights.jpg
Re: Tree age and flavor?
Grapes and apples are two examples of vegetative reproduction where clonals are *commonly* used as rootstock and scion. A clonal rootstock saved the entire wine grape industry of California.
http://www.bellwine.com/pages/clone6.html
However, the discussion here centers on age-related development of the rootzone and it's impact on new growth-leaf chemistry, cultivar adaptation to specific soils and climate and plant response to highly oxidizing environments. You may take issue with the comparison, but my comments, above concern rhizosphere microbial-ecology.
http://www.bellwine.com/pages/clone6.html
However, the discussion here centers on age-related development of the rootzone and it's impact on new growth-leaf chemistry, cultivar adaptation to specific soils and climate and plant response to highly oxidizing environments. You may take issue with the comparison, but my comments, above concern rhizosphere microbial-ecology.
Aug 22nd, '09, 14:51
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silverneedles
Re: Tree age and flavor?
do "old"/ established/mature trees use less of nutrients for system growth so the nutrients are more available to be concentrated in new leaf?
Aug 22nd, '09, 16:52
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Herb_Master
Re: Tree age and flavor?
That is entirely possible, perhaps specialist botanists would know the answer.silverneedles wrote:do "old"/ established/mature trees use less of nutrients for system growth so the nutrients are more available to be concentrated in new leaf?
However (many, if not all) specialist tea drinkers observe greater satisfaction with the tea from older trees, and are prepared to pay more for those teas.
The market economics of supply and demand justify the higher price for Dcs and some other Oolongs that come from old and even very old trees, whatever wh&yel was imputing.