My First Matcha.

[Intuit]

Frothing will also be largely determined by mineral content of the water (forms mineral salts of fatty acids with surface active qualities).

Apart from the pleasant sensation of froth in the mouth, incorporating gas into tea froth probably enhances aroma-type (volatile) taste notes.

[JBaymore]

Frothing will also be largely determined by mineral content of the water (forms mineral salts of fatty acids with surface active qualities).

Apart from the pleasant sensation of froth in the mouth, incorporating gas into tea froth probably enhances aroma-type (volatile) taste notes.

intuit,

Hummmm..... Can you please go into this one in a bit more depth (from your postings about your job.... I'm betting you can).

As a potter, I know that mineral content of the water used can affect certain properties of clay bodies and glaze suspensions and even color rendition in sensitive glaze formulations. It is not usually a large effect, but it can be there. More of a "technicality" than a HUGE problem with us.

From your persepctive, how might the boiling of water in the traditional Japanese cast iron furo affect this frothing? Do you think anything is leaching out of the iron casting (which I am sssuming is actually an alloy of some sort......not totally pure iron) and disolving into that water?

I'm a bit of a "tech weenie" ....so I am interested in this.

best,

...........john

[Intuit]

I think you're referring to clay particle dispersion, caused by double layer of ions forming around the clay mineral particle in hard water. I'm guessing it would alter (and maybe even interfere in extreme cases) clay behavior during mixing and when applying glazes and colors, by interfering with complexing reactions between mineral and organics (color and glaze binding/uptake onto underlying clay layers).

Expansive clays under double ion layering change density, becoming very buoyant and resisting collision floc formation. It's a big problem in settling out suspended clays (using settling ponds, tanks) in river water purification, industrial wastewater treatment and in rainwater runoff catchments to prevent stream fouling from erosion at construction sites.

Frothing is air entrainment into surface active layer. When oily components in a mixture are in excess of their solubility (doesn't take much, they're sparingly soluble), they form a floating layer because of hydrophobicity and low density. A considerable fraction are cell membrane fatty acids. When excess mineral is present, they form a scummy complex that loses surface activity, resisting frothing/foaming action.

Just like hard water resisting soap lathering.

[JBaymore]

I think you're referring to clay particle dispersion, caused by double layer of ions forming around the clay mineral particle in hard water. I'm guessing it would alter (and maybe even interfere in extreme cases) clay behavior during mixing and when applying glazes and colors, by interfering with complexing reactions between mineral and organics (color and glaze binding/uptake onto underlying clay layers).

Expansive clays under double ion layering change density, becoming very buoyant and resisting collision floc formation. It's a big problem in settling out suspended clays (using settling ponds, tanks) in river water purification, industrial wastewater treatment and in rainwater runoff catchments to prevent stream fouling from erosion at construction sites..

Intuit,

Sorry if I was not clear on this. I'm aware of that above stuff relating to the ceramic process aspect of this. What I am internested in is more info on your take on this as it relates specifically to matcha preparation and the use of cast iron furo (kettles) for the boiling of the water.

Frothing is air entrainment into surface active layer. When oily components in a mixture are in excess of their solubility (doesn't take much, they're sparingly soluble), they form a floating layer because of hydrophobicity and low density. A considerable fraction are cell membrane fatty acids. When excess mineral is present, they form a scummy complex that loses surface activity, resisting frothing/foaming action.

Just like hard water resisting soap lathering.

This above info about the issue of the solubility of even minute traces of any oils from food preparation stresses the importance of keeping tea wares for use with matcha, where the frothing is an imporaant component of both the visual aspects as well as the taste, away from the general "kitchen" environment and dishwashing.

It also makes a lot of sense relative to the so-called "ritual" cleaning of the chawan....... what with skin oils possibly being present on the chawan. In this respect, it likely has a real functional consideration in the preparation of a good bowl of matcha.

Your thoughts?

best,

.............john

PS: Chip (and Mr. Wigster), sorry to "hijack" the thread. Can you split this technical discussion off into a separte thread easily on this forum software?

[Mr Wigster]

:O Wow didn't realise so much thought went into the clay.

P.s Is there any way to turn on notifications of when someone has replied to a thread i've made?

[Chip]

:O Wow didn't realise so much thought went into the clay.

P.s Is there any way to turn on notifications of when someone has replied to a thread i've made?

You can turn this on.

User Control Panel>Board Preferences>Edit Posting Defaults.

Some members report problems with this feature while others have no problems.

[Intuit]

Doubt that skin oils are a problem. The presence of detergents probably alters the frothing. Even a small amount of detergent will abruptly change the characteristic surface tension fatty acid mixtures.

This a tensiometer that we use in the lab to measure surface tension changes as a function of surfactant concentration:

http://www.accudynetest.com/tensiometer.html

Surfactants and surfactant-like compounds (including plant cell wall phospholipids) form self-assembling aggregates, with the 'charged' end facing outwards, oily end facing inwards, in a bubble or large disk/plate configuration. This is termed the critical micellar concentration, cmc.

At the point in which these aggregates form, there is a characteristic change in the rate of surface tension drop.

http://www.ksvinc.com/cmc.htm

The addition of mineral salts interferes with surfactant action.

What do you think the iron in the kettle is doing to the water used for making matcha?

[Intuit]

Heh. Sometimes you read about an new study in a top drawer journal, like PNAS, and you think, "ye gods, they've finally figured that out"??

The buzz: natural carbonation fizz of champagne causes enrichment of aromatic volatile flavor components at the gas/liquid interface that results in flavor and aroma component phase separation and 'enrichment' upon degassing at the surface.

"Research shows there are up to 30 times more flavour-enhancing chemicals in the bubbles than in the rest of the drink. Wine experts say the finding changes completely our understanding of the role of bubbles in sparkling drinks".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8279073.stm

The Japanese knew that frothing would increase flavor intensity and create interesting mouthfeel through gas entrainment (frothing). Big bubbles are bad; little bubbles are good. Horaido tea shop has a nice video that demonstrates forming a a smooth [i]matcha mousse[/i].

Little bubbles are preferred in fine champagnes, too.

Why are little bubbles good? Their surface area is very large, providing a huge interface for volatilization and enrichment of flavor components - just like allowing fine wines to 'breath' after uncorking.

And small bubbles are exceptionally stable and long lasting structures. That's good when you have communal tea preparation that is going to be slowly sipped from a chawan passed around between guests.

In fact, microbubble foams, known as 'mousse' are ultra-stable.

[davidd]

Hi guys.

I was curious about this tea and I ordered it from ebay. The problem is that I don't like it one bit. You're writing about how sweet it is but in my case it's extremely bitter. I just want to hurl after drinking it So it's supposed to be bitter or did I order crappy matcha ?

I tried making it about 5 times, each time differently (water temp, matcha, whisking) ... all variations tasted horrifically

[Chip]

Hi guys.

I was curious about this tea and I ordered it from ebay. The problem is that I don't like it one bit. You're writing about how sweet it is but in my case it's extremely bitter. I just want to hurl after drinking it So it's supposed to be bitter or did I order crappy matcha ?

I tried making it about 5 times, each time differently (water temp, matcha, whisking) ... all variations tasted horrifically

More info on which matcha you ordered would help us to help you. Do you have a link for it?

[RachelC]

My first Matcha was something of an amazing experience. I was hooked ever since. Although, I do drink it on occasion and not all the time. More like a special treat.

[TokyoB]

Hi guys.

I was curious about this tea and I ordered it from ebay. The problem is that I don't like it one bit. You're writing about how sweet it is but in my case it's extremely bitter. I just want to hurl after drinking it So it's supposed to be bitter or did I order crappy matcha ?

I tried making it about 5 times, each time differently (water temp, matcha, whisking) ... all variations tasted horrifically

I find all matcha to be bitter. Some of it I do like though - generally more expensive koicha is less bitter. In Japan it is served with a small sweet. I find that balances the bitterness. As you say, some people describe matcha as sweet but I've never found matcha to taste sweet. In some other threads we discussed how some people (maybe something like 30 or 40% of all people) perceive certain bitter foods to be much more bitter than the rest of the population does. Maybe we're both in that group.

[aKnightWhoSaysNi]

Hi guys.

I was curious about this tea and I ordered it from ebay. The problem is that I don't like it one bit. You're writing about how sweet it is but in my case it's extremely bitter. I just want to hurl after drinking it So it's supposed to be bitter or did I order crappy matcha ?

I tried making it about 5 times, each time differently (water temp, matcha, whisking) ... all variations tasted horrifically

I find all matcha to be bitter. Some of it I do like though - generally more expensive koicha is less bitter. In Japan it is served with a small sweet. I find that balances the bitterness. As you say, some people describe matcha as sweet but I've never found matcha to taste sweet. In some other threads we discussed how some people (maybe something like 30 or 40% of all people) perceive certain bitter foods to be much more bitter than the rest of the population does. Maybe we're both in that group.

I think the palette somewhat mellows as a person ages. I think back to when I was a small child and remember how bitter mustard seemed to have tasted... and now that I'm older I really like mustard!

[Intuit]

Dulling of the taste buds by age-related cumulative damage to the CNS probably doesn't occur until reasonably late in the your senior years, unless you smoke.

Adapting flavor and aroma sensing over time with repeat exposures - that's developing 'a palate'.

[aKnightWhoSaysNi]

Ah, well I don't do that. I also ate candy and glue when I was a child, so perhaps my palate has refined a bit since then