gyokuro & sencha: umami vs sweetness

[debunix]

I am still very new to japanese green teas--got my green tea novice sampler from Den's last fall--and have so far just had a handful of senchas and two different gyokuros, most from Den's. One big point of confusion remains: I read a lot about sweetness and umami in reference to these tea, and covering the gyokuro increases the sweetness of the finished tea.

I have not found a way to brew the gyokuros that does not really emphasize the umami over the sweetness, and find it easier to get a more predominantly sweet flavor out of the senchas. I'm even getting the feeling that the highest grade senchas also have a balance tipped towards umami rather than sweetness.

Because I have not had the pleasure of infusing and sharing these teas in person with experts I do not know if this is a peculiarity of my infusion technique or an appropriate inference based on the usual styles of these teas. What do you think?

[Chip]

Everyone's palate is different. We perceive the more subtleties of teas differently. This is compounded as aroma and sense of smell plays a huge part in what we perceive as taste.

Coupled with the fact that as you hit on, we do not have the convenience of all sitting around and comparing the exact same brew ... so water, brewing technics, teaware also compound the problem of determining a universal taste sensation.

Another issue is of course the teas themselves. Each sencha and gyokuro are different.

I always find the first importance to be, does the tea taste good, and do I feel I brought out the very essence of a particular sencha or gyo. Then is the tea actually a good one ... so many gyokuro are simply NOT very good, and may not be gyokuro at all, might be a low grade kabuse that is being sold as gyo.

Umami is not such a distinct flavor, not like salt or sweet or bitter. It is usually more subtle in tea and takes time to grasp. However have a cup of Yutaka Midori, you will say, "UMAMI!"

You may need to increase temp a bit for sencha, or increase the time maybe.

[Dresden]

What Chip said...

You really don't "get" what umami is until it slaps you in the face. I would almost describe it a savory. Like a big cup of broth.

For what it's worth, the strongest umami I have personally encountered was in a cup of Uji Miyabi.

Your mileage may vary,
Mike

[olivierco]

Because I have not had the pleasure of infusing and sharing these teas in person with experts I do not know if this is a peculiarity of my infusion technique or an appropriate inference based on the usual styles of these teas.

How did you brew your gyokuro?

[OchameTaiken]

One big point of confusion remains: I read a lot about sweetness and umami in reference to these tea, and covering the gyokuro increases the sweetness of the finished tea.
I have not found a way to brew the gyokuros that does not really emphasize the umami over the sweetness, and find it easier to get a more predominantly sweet flavor out of the sencha. I'm even getting the feeling that the highest grade senchas also have a balance tipped towards umami rather than sweetness.

Certainly, with both gyokuro and sencha, your sweetness and umami come from amino acids (in which gyokuro is especially abundant.) Amino acids will be extracted very quickly regardless of how you steep the tea. So you won't be able to isolate umami or sweetness from one another, as theanine and glutamates are both amino acids. It only depends upon their natural concentration in the leaf.
Higher quality sencha will have more amino acids, as the leaves are younger and have had less exposure to the sun (even more so for gyokuro).

I wonder if you are confused about the kind of "sweetness" you are expecting. You would definitely be tasting sweetness if you infused gyokuro in an extremely small, concentrated brew (shizuku style) or in ice as we mentioned in another thread. It may be you are distracted by the richness of umami, or you are expecting a more sugary sweet taste.

The kanji for sweet is called "kan" in Chinese, and this is recognized as a sweetness that is not sugary. Saccharides are also sweet components in sencha, but they are in smaller quantity and weaker in flavor, so their presence or absence really does not influence the overall "sweetness" of tea.

[debunix]

It may be you are distracted by the richness of umami, or you are expecting a more sugary sweet taste.

The kanji for sweet is called "kan" in Chinese, and this is recognized as a sweetness that is not sugary.

I think this is exactly the explanation that I was looking for: I have certainly not found any bitterness as I've tried the higher quality senchas and gyokuros, but have found more umami, without necessarily any increase in the more sugary sweetness I prefer.

[olivierco]

I have certainly not found any bitterness as I've tried the higher quality senchas and gyokuros, but have found more umami, without necessarily any increase in the more sugary sweetness I prefer.

You should try the Tsuru Jiru Shi gyokuro.

[debunix]

Where can I get it?

[Chip]

Where can I get it?

The O-C, it is the rich bro' of the Kame.

[debunix]

How did you brew your gyokuro?

Have tried 140 degrees with 5 g tea in 5 oz water in my kyusu, for 30", 60", or 150 seconds first infusion; or 5 g tea in 2 oz water first infusion 150 seconds. The 140 degrees is the temp suggested by Dens.

[OchameTaiken]

Have tried 140 degrees with 5 g tea in 5 oz water in my kyusu, for 30", 60", or 150 seconds first infusion; or 5 g tea in 2 oz water first infusion 150 seconds. The 140 degrees is the temp suggested by Dens.

Gyokuro is generally steeped longer and more steadily than sencha.
Since the balance of flavor is more gentle than sencha, gyokuro is usually steeped just over a minute, and sencha just under, for a very basic method.

Now if you're getting more fancy (really dropping the temperature, or concentrating it in a much smaller thicker, brew) then you can extend your steeping to 2 mins, or 3 minutes. This is the style that gyokuro was built for and where it really shines. It depends on the quality, but the finest gyokuro can be stretched for 3 minutes at very cool temps. The cooler the water, the longer you can afford to steep it for maximum sweet, concentrated flavor. So at 140*F, 30sec would not give the tea much chance to flourish.

(Again, it depends whether we're talking REALLY fine gyokuro, and whether you want to indulge in a really fine steeping.)

[debunix]

....if you're getting more fancy (really dropping the temperature, or concentrating it in a much smaller thicker, brew) then you can extend your steeping to 2 mins, or 3 minutes. This is the style that gyokuro was built for and where it really shines. .... (Again, it depends whether we're talking REALLY fine gyokuro, and whether you want to indulge in a really fine steeping.)

This is what I did with the special competition sample of gyokuro from Den's this morning--it was 5g to 2 oz water, 150" initial infusion at 140 degrees, as recommended on the package. It was a lovely deep briny vegetal brew, not a hint of astringency or bitterness, but any sugary-sweetness was overwhelmed by the deeper flavors.

And it sounds like playing with time and temp won't really help much with this aspect, as the sweet and the umami are both from amino acids that are extracted at similar temperatures and rates.

I'm getting ready to order some tea directly from Japan for the first time, and this discussion makes some things easier--probably should focus only on senchas for the moment, no gyokuros or matchas. But which senchas?

[Tead Off]

....if you're getting more fancy (really dropping the temperature, or concentrating it in a much smaller thicker, brew) then you can extend your steeping to 2 mins, or 3 minutes. This is the style that gyokuro was built for and where it really shines. .... (Again, it depends whether we're talking REALLY fine gyokuro, and whether you want to indulge in a really fine steeping.)

This is what I did with the special competition sample of gyokuro from Den's this morning--it was 5g to 2 oz water, 150" initial infusion at 140 degrees, as recommended on the package. It was a lovely deep briny vegetal brew, not a hint of astringency or bitterness, but any sugary-sweetness was overwhelmed by the deeper flavors.

And it sounds like playing with time and temp won't really help much with this aspect, as the sweet and the umami are both from amino acids that are extracted at similar temperatures and rates.

I'm getting ready to order some tea directly from Japan for the first time, and this discussion makes some things easier--probably should focus only on senchas for the moment, no gyokuros or matchas. But which senchas?

Why do you say 'probably should focus on senchas'? Not to dismiss sencha, but almost all the Japanese connoisseurs I know tell me gyokuro is most special to them. This has also been my experience and unfortunately, the cost is also higher. I strongly recommend Ippodo's higher grades of gyokuro to start with. I think this is a good measuring stick for comparing other gyokuros to. 8-10g with no more than 80ml water, 60c temp, about 1.5 minutes. Wow.

[debunix]

Why do you say 'probably should focus on senchas'? Not to dismiss sencha, but almost all the Japanese connoisseurs I know tell me gyokuro is most special to them. This has also been my experience and unfortunately, the cost is also higher.

Why I think I should focus on senchas is that I think there is a disconnect between what the connoisseurs are delighting in, and what I enjoy most:

I wonder if you are confused about the kind of "sweetness" you are expecting. You would definitely be tasting sweetness if you infused gyokuro in an extremely small, concentrated brew (shizuku style) or in ice as we mentioned in another thread. It may be you are distracted by the richness of umami, or you are expecting a more sugary sweet taste.

The kanji for sweet is called "kan" in Chinese, and this is recognized as a sweetness that is not sugary. Saccharides are also sweet components in sencha, but they are in smaller quantity and weaker in flavor, so their presence or absence really does not influence the overall "sweetness" of tea.

That's really what this topic was about: trying to figure out if continuing to try higher and higher priced grades of these teas was going to lead to more of the umami that I really don't care for very much yet. It seems like the answer is yes. So instead of continuing to buy teas I might like someday but can't appreciate now--we're not talking puerhs, after all, where I can set my disappointments aside and try again in a few weeks or months or years--I want to stick to teas I'll appreciate now.

If I can't assume that the honey-sweet comes automatically with higher grade, and if the catalog description of these teas as sweet is not referring to honey-sweet, how do I find the ones that have a better chance of finding that honey-sweet and less umami? Starting with the ones that are not shade grown seems like a logical first step to me, at least for now.

[Chip]

I personally like sencha all the time. I love gyo, but I seem to crave it less than sencha. I also tend to make it more special by only having gyo once or twice per week.